The hand Greg moved in and i walked around the table

[josh arieh]

I dont quite remember the amounts of the bets, but i remember the hand amazingly well.. I was moving right along trading jabs with greg, with neither of us hurting each other too badly... i think i called from the big or small blind with the AT diam... the flop came JT6 i bleive, with two clubs.... i lead about a pot size bet and greg called... turn was a 5 or a 7 , i checked Greg bet 1 mill, i called... the river was the 7 of clubs i think... i checked greg moved in... i was prepared in my mind to call any bet if a club, king or Q didnt come... but it came... im not one to call all of my chips too often, but i was certain that i had had the best hand on the turn, but wasnt sure if Greg had caught up with me on the river.... after a much longer tank session of thinking than i am used to... i decided to fold... after the tournament Greg told me he made the nut flush with the A3 of clubs...
I am sadly dissapointed at what ESPN did to this years final table.... there were many great hands of poker played between Greg and myself and David and myself, i believe that all three of us were on top of our games.... ESPN showed none of that... if you watch the final table on pokerstars, you will see that either Greg or myself raised nearly every hand and played a lot of small pots together.. ESPN could have easily made the final table a 2 hour show, and it would have given the viewers a better perspective of what actually took place...

In my 3 days at the feature table, they showed me play like 5 hands, me getting lucky twice, and losing a few coin flips... they did the same to greg... they dont give the viewer any idea of what is going on...greg played great by chopping away and chipping up... then when a coin flip situation came up, he was basically on a free roll, that is what i consider playing perfect.... i wish ESPN understood this.... sorry so long.. i will stop now
josh

[toots]

Which is why I appreciate people like you coming here and filling us in on some of the better hands that ESPN chose not to show us.

Thanks.

[West]

Hey man, your post actually isn't that long, and I'm sure most people who read this forum would be happy to read as many thoughts as you feel like sharing....I wouldn't worry about rambling.

Any hands that were particularly interesting to you that you played with David Williams that you remember?

[La Brujita]

Very interesting post. Thanks for the insights.

Just out of curiousity did you consider pricing out the flush draw on the turn (of course you considered it just wondering what made you decide against it)?

I remember Ciaffone talking about the undertaking to bet again against a flush draw in PLNLP if a blank hits on the turn. Mind you I am not trying to second guess.

I also wished they showed more of the crucial hands, at least we got to see the game with the cards on peoples' heads.

[Tyler Durden]

Hey Josh, just curious, why is checkraising the turn not the correct play here? Seems like there are a lot of scare cards that can fall on the end that may kill your hand.

I understand not wanting to play a big pot w/ Greg but your stacks were probably deep enough that you could checkraise a 1 million chip bet and not be all-in AND have the raise be enough that Greg wouldn't be able to call, correct? I can't imagine that you didn't make the c/r b/c you weren't confident enough in your read.

[Kopefire]

Josh,

Thanks for the insight and account. it really is a shame that the shows don't do a better job of showing the poker instead of the personalities.

[swimfan]

watching the final table on ps, thought there was plenty that went on that was not shown; the described hand a perfect example. thought that you and greg played very well, it appeared as both of you willing to take risks and gamble it up a bit...giving special consideration to position. thanks for recounting the hand, many posters were very curious. congrats on your wpt finish as well...

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont quite remember the amounts of the bets, but i remember the hand amazingly well.. I was moving right along trading jabs with greg, with neither of us hurting each other too badly... i think i called from the big or small blind with the AT diam... the flop came JT6 i bleive, with two clubs.... i lead about a pot size bet and greg called... turn was a 5 or a 7 , i checked Greg bet 1 mill, i called... the river was the 7 of clubs i think... i checked greg moved in... i was prepared in my mind to call any bet if a club, king or Q didnt come... but it came... im not one to call all of my chips too often, but i was certain that i had had the best hand on the turn, but wasnt sure if Greg had caught up with me on the river.... after a much longer tank session of thinking than i am used to... i decided to fold... after the tournament Greg told me he made the nut flush with the A3 of clubs...
I am sadly dissapointed at what ESPN did to this years final table.... there were many great hands of poker played between Greg and myself and David and myself, i believe that all three of us were on top of our games.... ESPN showed none of that... if you watch the final table on pokerstars, you will see that either Greg or myself raised nearly every hand and played a lot of small pots together.. ESPN could have easily made the final table a 2 hour show, and it would have given the viewers a better perspective of what actually took place...

In my 3 days at the feature table, they showed me play like 5 hands, me getting lucky twice, and losing a few coin flips... they did the same to greg... they dont give the viewer any idea of what is going on...greg played great by chopping away and chipping up... then when a coin flip situation came up, he was basically on a free roll, that is what i consider playing perfect.... i wish ESPN understood this.... sorry so long.. i will stop now
josh

[/ QUOTE ]

business to entertain. they could care less about small pot wins that they may see as "UNEVENTFUL". they wanna show hands where some significant thing occurred, leaving alot of novice viewers to see the final table like some all-in coinflip and river catch-fest.

[josh arieh]

my mistake in the hand was checking the turn... i wasnt sure if greg was slowplaying a big hand behind me or was on a flushdraw.... once i checked and he bet 1 mill, i didnt have enuff chips to move in, i think i only had about 3 mill at that point and my raise would have only been 2m and he would have had to call... if i had led allin on the turn, i may have won the pot there... but hindsite is 20-20

[Tyler Durden]

Okay cool. I thought you could c/r enough to get a fold but with that stack, yea he wouldn't have folded.

[NLfool]

how aggressively can you play with with 2nd pair with that much money at stake regardless of how you're not supposed to think amount the money. I mean Greg could have had one of those JXc top pair and 4 flush which he could very likely play it like it panned out.

I think the call were best and if Greg put 1 million on the turn a checkraise I don't think will move him off (but not sure of the stacks at that point)

Anyways GL in Aruba let me know how Deeb, Young Phan, and haveson are doing as I got all those at the field prices on Pinnacle would have picked you but odds on you are way too low.

[reecelights]

Drove me crazy too. I watched every episode, meaning the earlier lower buy-in tourneys. The only hands they showed in the early tourneys was where the hand was AA v KK or AK v TT or something like that. Or when someone was acting up..."He called me with Jack high!"

Actually, it was Q high. No strategy, only crucial, big hands.

I wasn't too disappointed with the main event coverage, better than last year. I wonder if the DVD will show more, or if it's just the broadcast.

How do you see the final table on Poker Stars? Or is it too late?

[fnurt]

This was a huge pot with action all the way to the river.

[cornell2005]

good post

do that buckhead bounce

[Tyler Durden]

Does anyone want to discuss the way Greg played this hand? Josh?

I don't see how he got to the turn.

[Tosh]

I guess its why there isn't much live poker shown, as most of it comes down to a raise taking the blinds or ending on the flop. Its annoying when you play poker as seeing everything is more interesting to get an idea of the texture of the table and overall play of everyone. ESPN coverage is crap at best from what I've seen over here in the UK.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sadly dissapointed at what ESPN did to this years final table.... there were many great hands of poker played between Greg and myself and David and myself, i believe that all three of us were on top of our games.... ESPN showed none of that...

[/ QUOTE ]

My friends and I have had small watching parties and we all felt the same way. As you stated elsewhere the final table definitely needed to be a two hour show. And for all shows ESPN needs to do a better job showing the stack sizes, blind/ante sizes, bet size relative to the pot size and so on (for instance, the WPT does a half decent job here).

Although they may perceive the primary market as being casual viewers and want to make things "dramatic" rather than technical, a significant percentage are serious poker players or those that want to be. That segment of the viewing audience has the potential to grow, the casual viewer will ultimately bore watching a continuous string of "move all in", "coin flip", and 'bust out" hands. Ultimately, showing move in or bust out hands one after the other just plain cheapens the coverage.

[ QUOTE ]
if you watch the final table on pokerstars, you will see that either Greg or myself raised nearly every hand and played a lot of small pots together..

[/ QUOTE ]

The pokerstars coverage had quite a few technical difficulties plus they got a lot wrong (at least on the initial showing). What I and a maybe about 500,000 people would love is one tape/DVD with the final table unedited (except for the breaks where the table was reset) and the stack sizes, pot sizes and blind sizes clearly indicated. I'd pay $40 for that.

Good post.

~ Rick

[La Brujita]

Just a guess as to how he got to the turn (not to put my thoughts in his head),

IIRC they had been sparring pretty good with average cards. If Greg thought his A out was good that gave him 12 outs on the turn, that is pretty close for immediate odds (obviously a bit low). Hard to say without exact stack sizes etc. but if he thought he could bust Josh on the hand if he flushed it seems like an autocall at least (ie implied odds). My question is what about a flop raise to get a free next two cards. I think the money might not have been deep enough as Josh said.

I also wonder what he thought his chances that A high was good (ie total bluff by Josh or semibluff with KQ or 98).

Just my two cents.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
IIRC they had been sparring pretty good with average cards. If Greg thought his A out was good that gave him 12 outs on the turn, that is pretty close for immediate odds (obviously a bit low). Hard to say without exact stack sizes etc. but if he thought he could bust Josh on the hand if he flushed it seems like an autocall at least (ie implied odds). My question is what about a flop raise to get a free next two cards. I think the money might not have been deep enough as Josh said.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, I misread Josh's post. I thought Greg picked up the flush draw on the turn.

[tdomeski]

[ QUOTE ]
do that buckhead bounce

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is the Bankhead Bounce.

[Nemesis]

fairly sure it's Buckhead

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do that buckhead bounce

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is the Bankhead Bounce.

[/ QUOTE ]

ive heard both. i think it started as bankhead, then recently has been mentioned as buckhead. i dont know how to do the bankhead bounce per se so i will stick to the buckhead variety. maybe josh can teach us about bankhead

[mmbt0ne]

Definitely Bankhead. And the A-Town Stomp.

[siccjay]

Good read. Thanx for posting this kinda stuff.

[TheArtist]

After reading rave reviews about your play on Cardplayer, I was looking forward to watch you play on T.V. Unfortunately, like you said, all I got to see was coinflip hands, and the hands you got realy lucky in. Also, ESPN really made you look like a really cocky guy on t.v. Oh well, what can you do.

Good post too...
TheArtist

[ohiou]

As an average poker player who makes his money due more to other's bad play rather than my own, I am forever thankful to ESPN's coverage. I think we all understand that there is alot that is not being shown, but the rest of the world thinks that poker should be played the way it is aired on TV, ie- all in every other hand, bluffing every 5 hands, and so on.

I know that we would all like to see the best in the world go at it at the final table the way it really happened, but for now I'll be happy that ESPN's coverage brings alot of people into the game. I think we have ESPN to thank for Party Poker and the rest of the online games that most here seem to do pretty well at.

I just know that every time some guy walks into my weekly game wearing sunglasses and quoting Rounders that my wallet gets a little fuller.

[Vince Lepore]

I was sitting there during the entire final table of the WSOP. Josh is absolutely correct. EXPN screwed the pooch with their coveage of the final table. Greg and Josh made that table an event worth watching. Poker is not the most exciting thing in the world to watch but these two guys kept everyone on the edge of their seats. If Josh didn't raise Greg did. They played and played and played against each other is how I remembered the event. /images/graemlins/confused.gif