So a priest, a LAG and a fireman walk into a bar...

[SomethingClever]

What's your action on this flop? Also, how's the preflop call?

Reads: UTG +1 is showing signs of being a maniac.

EDIT: Er, maybe he's not, since I just sat down and posted in the CO. I'm thinking of the UTG +1 from a different table.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (16 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero????

[SomethingClever]

Okay, my abstract title has gotten me zero responses.

Whaddaya do on this flop? If it was checked to me, I'd bet. If it was bet once before me, I'd raise.

But facing two bets in such a large field... I'm scared of the 5. Anyone have a good argument for calling or raising the flop?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
But facing two bets in such a large field... I'm scared of the 5. Anyone have a good argument for calling or raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont', but I'd have folded pre-flop.

[SomethingClever]

I'm not closing the action, but I'm likely getting 12-1 on my preflop call... isn't that worth it?

Edit: Of course, it turned out to be 15-1, but even if I can only "expect" 12-1, I think I have to call, no?

[MEbenhoe]

Well you have to make that call preflop because you posted from the CO. Personally I hate posting from CO and would rather wait for my blind. This is for reasons gonores explained well in another thread. Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button. This idea is even more magnified in a 6 max game. This is why I feel its always a better option to wait for your blind.

As far as the flop play goes, with that large of a field its very likely that someone could have a 5, and someone could have K8 or A8. Also even if you are actually winning at this point, what are the chances that you'll actually be winning at the end of this hand against all these other players which by their play, most of them will probably be in until the river. All these other players being in the hand will result in implicit collusion and unless you catch perfect one of them will run you down. This is a clear fold due to the fact that there is a good chance you're already beaten, and even if you aren't its unlikely you'll have the best hand at the end, and unlikely you can force hands out. Even the huge odds the pot is offering you to call at 11.5:1 don't justify calling in the hopes of seeing another 8 come up.

[Smasharoo]

Fold. Assuming your pair of 8's isn't going to hold up as the best hand, you're looking at what, 2 outs where you win the hand barring runner runner queens or clubs.

You need an 8 realistically. To call $1 you need ~$20 in the pot. You're looking at ~$15 maybe.

Someone almost certainly has an overpair to the board, if not the 5. I can't see how you're not behind here.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands from CO /images/graemlins/confused.gif

You pay 1 SB to see 8 hands. It's actually better than waiting for the blind.

I basically agree with your flop analysis, though. Field's too big and with no reads, I can't call.

After these results, I got some reads.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (16 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (11.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between MP3 and UTG+1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP3 (15.50 BB).</font>

Results
UTG+1 has 6s 9s (one pair, fives).
MP3 has 4h 4s (two pair, fives and fours).
Outcome: MP3 wins 15.50 BB.

[CT11]

[ QUOTE ]
Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this logic you pay for hands after they are played so your really paying 1BB for 1 hand then 1.5 for 10 hands untill you're done. If you leave after UTG you get 8 free.

It makes more sense to count as if you pay in advance. so your getting 7 hands for 1BB then 10 for 1.5BB untill you're done. 1/7 = .143BB/hand and 1.5/10 = .15BB/hand so your really actually getting a slight deal doing this. This assumes a 10 player game. Its even for 9 player and worse for &lt;9 player.

But it may be more +EV to watch for 7/10 th of an orbit to make sure you have a good table.

~CT11

[nothumb]

All you nit bastards should be forced to post from UTG for the rest of your lives, and post live straddles too, for debating this crap. Especially in live games - post already, for chrissakes. Online is a little more forgivable, but geez.

NT

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
All you nit bastards should be forced to post from UTG for the rest of your lives, and post live straddles too, for debating this crap. Especially in live games - post already, for chrissakes. Online is a little more forgivable, but geez.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems ridiculuos to me that people would want to add more hands where they're putting money in the pot without a choice. It's simply smart poker to wait for your blind to post and always play your last hand of your session from UTG.

[DMBFan23]

theres a section in SSH (my FAVORITE) that talks about not doing things in live poker like wearing sunglasses and waiting for the blind - it gives you a bad table image

[HajiShirazu]

I actually prefer posting in the CO to posting the BB.
Either way posting in the CO and posting the BB have to be at least close. If you are a good winning player it is probably in your best interest to get down at the table as quickly as possible. Also if you are going to play the CO forced blind well, then it is far less of a disadvantage to have to post it than one would think.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
theres a section in SSH (my FAVORITE) that talks about not doing things in live poker like wearing sunglasses and waiting for the blind - it gives you a bad table image

[/ QUOTE ]

Well with all due respect to Ed Miller I have to disagree with that idea. Also, we're talking about online poker in this situation not live, and to top that its micro limits. If you think table image means anything in the micro limits you're overthinking your play for this level.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know, I never thought about it like that. I often post in CO, but no earlier, because I can't wait to play /images/graemlins/smile.gif knowing that I am taking a small hit but also knowing that people know i am posting and therefore will spend more money on my good hands.....

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know, I never thought about it like that. I often post in CO, but no earlier, because I can't wait to play /images/graemlins/smile.gif knowing that I am taking a small hit but also knowing that people know i am posting and therefore will spend more money on my good hands.....

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good thing you didn't think about it like that, because it isn't really right. /images/graemlins/smile.gif He said you pay 2.5BB to play eight hands, but then he left out the next free seven hands that you get. It's 2.5BB to play fifteen hands, not eight. (At least it is if you want to compare it to 1.5BB to play nine.)

[stir]

Agree. Compare online first 20 hands to first 20.
Wait to post costs 3 sb's.
Post in sb costs 4 sb's = 33% additonal cost.

If you play one $2/4 session/day for 250 days/year looks like and additional cost of ~$500 to me. If Multi-table each of those days and always post in the CO, the cost mounts.

[SomethingClever]

Another argument for posting in the CO:

Unlike the blinds, you're actually in great position and if you hit the flop hard with a random holding, nobody can put you on it.

I just look at it as a semi-straddle. gamb00l!!1111!1!

[Frank A. Adrian]

&lt;&lt;It seems ridiculuos to me that people would want to add more hands where they're putting money in the pot without a choice. It's simply smart poker to wait for your blind to post and always play your last hand of your session from UTG.&gt;&gt;

If you have a average hand EV &gt; than the (cost of the blind) / (# of hands seen before blind) it's stupid to sit out. You make money for *every* hand you're in. The only time to sit out is when your EV is less than that value (note that the decision is positional - the closer you are to the blind, the more likely it is that you should sit out). I would imagine that for most of the 2+2'ers, this means you should enter the game wherever you are WRT the blinds /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a average hand EV &gt; than the (cost of the blind) / (# of hands seen before blind) it's stupid to sit out. You make money for *every* hand you're in. The only time to sit out is when your EV is less than that value (note that the decision is positional - the closer you are to the blind, the more likely it is that you should sit out). I would imagine that for most of the 2+2'ers, this means you should enter the game wherever you are WRT the blinds /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well lets look at what you're saying here. Lets be generous and say that you're a player capable of consistenly pulling 4 BB/100. When you post early you're posting the size of the big blind or .5 BB. This is equal to 1/8 of your pull per 100 hands. Therefore for posting early to be a +EV play there would have to be &gt;12.5 hands between you and the big blind. I've never seen a hold em game where that is the case.

Now lets look at the case of a $1/$2 9 handed hold em game. You sit down in the CO meaning that if you don't post here you will be sitting out 6 hands. Your average pull is $8/100 hands or $0.08/hand. So if you sit out 6 hands you are losing $0.48, but if you post it costs you $1 to see these 6 hands. So you're paying $1 to make $0.48 back, making this a play which costs you $0.52 or $0.0866666 per hand.

[MEbenhoe]

Ed,

I'd be interested in hearing your reply to my most recent post.

Thanks,

Matt

[Ed Miller]

Well lets look at what you're saying here. Lets be generous and say that you're a player capable of consistenly pulling 4 BB/100. When you post early you're posting the size of the big blind or .5 BB. This is equal to 1/8 of your pull per 100 hands. Therefore for posting early to be a +EV play there would have to be &gt;12.5 hands between you and the big blind. I've never seen a hold em game where that is the case.

Now lets look at the case of a $1/$2 9 handed hold em game. You sit down in the CO meaning that if you don't post here you will be sitting out 6 hands. Your average pull is $8/100 hands or $0.08/hand. So if you sit out 6 hands you are losing $0.48, but if you post it costs you $1 to see these 6 hands. So you're paying $1 to make $0.48 back, making this a play which costs you $0.52 or $0.0866666 per hand.

If the post were dead, then your reasoning would be correct. It's not, though... it's live. That makes you way off.

EDIT: If you want a real estimate of what posting in the cutoff costs, find someone with a very large PokerTracker database and see how much he loses per hand from the big blind. From that, remove some amount that corresponds to your positional advantage in the cutoff (you can estimate that by comparing your winrate from the cutoff to your winrate from, say under the gun... yes, I know it's not totally a fair comparison because the big blind acts last preflop yada yada).

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Well lets look at what you're saying here. Lets be generous and say that you're a player capable of consistenly pulling 4 BB/100. When you post early you're posting the size of the big blind or .5 BB. This is equal to 1/8 of your pull per 100 hands. Therefore for posting early to be a +EV play there would have to be &gt;12.5 hands between you and the big blind. I've never seen a hold em game where that is the case.

Now lets look at the case of a $1/$2 9 handed hold em game. You sit down in the CO meaning that if you don't post here you will be sitting out 6 hands. Your average pull is $8/100 hands or $0.08/hand. So if you sit out 6 hands you are losing $0.48, but if you post it costs you $1 to see these 6 hands. So you're paying $1 to make $0.48 back, making this a play which costs you $0.52 or $0.0866666 per hand.

If the post were dead, then your reasoning would be correct. It's not, though... it's live. That makes you way off.

EDIT: If you want a real estimate of what posting in the cutoff costs, find someone with a very large PokerTracker database and see how much he loses per hand from the big blind. From that, remove some amount that corresponds to your positional advantage in the cutoff (you can estimate that by comparing your winrate from the cutoff to your winrate from, say under the gun... yes, I know it's not totally a fair comparison because the big blind acts last preflop yada yada).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if I am in fact way off due to this fact, then it also disproves Frank A. Adrian's reason for why I should post in CO. Given that I'm yet to hear a compelling reason for why I should post in CO.

[Ed Miller]

Well if I am in fact way off due to this fact, then it also disproves Frank A. Adrian's reason for why I should post in CO. Given that I'm yet to hear a compelling reason for why I should post in CO.

I don't really care where you post. My feeling is that it really doesn't make a big longterm difference.

But you are way off when you assert that you forfeit your entire blind when you post... there's no "if" about it.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
But you are way off when you assert that you forfeit your entire blind when you post... there's no "if" about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never asserted this.

The post I made was in response to a post which said that if you're EV/hand &gt; (size of blind)/(# of hands you'd miss by not posting) then you're losing money by not posting. I used his own formula to prove that then there is no situation in which you lose money by not posting. And by this formula posting in CO would be -EV.

I have a few other ideas of why this may be a -EV play over the long run, but in all reality I guess the question is does it really matter. Even if this play is -EV or +EV it's of such a small margin that its of no great consequence. My personal feeling is that I will always wait for the blind to post for the simple reason that I like to have as much choice in all the money I put in the pot as I can, so adding another position where I have to involuntarily put money in the pot isn't a good idea in my mind.