66, turns a set

[cold_cash]

Table was loose with bouts of aggression pre-flop, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

The CO seemed fairly tight compared to the rest of the players, but he'd only been at the table for a couple orbits.

I've got a couple specific questions, but I'll wait on those for a little bit. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (27.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 34.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 34.50 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero.</font>

[afk]

I think you played it well. Gotta love how EVERYONE calls the flop raise.

[illunious]

I'd check fold the flop.

By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

I don't think this works in your favor enough, you're in really bad shape when anyone else calls the raise, or when everyone folds and you get reraised (what happened on the flop is a disaster for a 3 SB investment).

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, yes. Why wouldn't you want to be heads up with the CO's overcards?

I admit the flop check-raise kind of blew up in my face, but I figured the pot was big enough at the time to go for it. I (obviously) didn't expect everybody to call.

I'm thinking that this play is weakened because of the flush draw, and would be much better with a rainbow flop. I'm still not convinced it's the wrong play, however, and that's a big reason why I wanted some feedback.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]
Table was loose with bouts of aggression pre-flop, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

The CO seemed fairly tight compared to the rest of the players, but he'd only been at the table for a couple orbits.

I've got a couple specific questions, but I'll wait on those for a little bit. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn’t have cold called with 66, I’d have folded pairs less than about 99.

[ QUOTE ]


Flop: (10 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[ QUOTE ]


Turn: (12.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, bet here.

[ QUOTE ]


River: (27.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

I would have re-raised.

[ QUOTE ]


Final Pot: 34.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 34.50 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero.</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m just a beginner so I’d love to hear analysis of my analysis.

Derick

[cold_cash]

I think there's a reasonable chance that I have the best hand after the flop, yes.

I'm check-raising the CO because I think there are quite a few hands (overcards) that he would raise with pre-flop that I'm ahead of. I would also like everyone behind me to fold, and check-raising the flop seemed like the best way to accomplish that.

Re-raising the river never crossed my mind. Actually, I wasn't even sure if I should have bet it. MP1 did a lot of calling, then came to life when the third heart hit. I was positive I was beaten.

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why I oughta...

BTW, I loved MP1's comments after the hand. Classic. As to the coward part, I'll most certainly raise w/74o next time.

-Jaran

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd check fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You have favorable position for the c/r to drive out the other players ( /images/graemlins/shocked.gif that worked out well). And just because the CO raise pf, doesn't mean PP... More often than not, it's overcards.

Overcards that may raise here:
AK (16 combinations), AQ (16 combinations), AJ(16 combinations), KQ (16 combinations), QJs (4 combinations), KJs (4 combinations), KTs (4 combinations)

Pockets that may raise here:
AA-JJ (6 combinations each = 24 combinations) TT (3 combinations left), 99 = 6 combinations.

You are 76:33 (overcards:pairs) ==&gt; 2.3:1. You may have the best hand here, a raise is good... The 3-bet lets you know you might just be up against an overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read ToP. Read HPFAP. Read SSH. You may have only a 30% chance of winning here (pulling this figure out of the air). By raising, and getting heads up... you may increase your chances of winning by 10% or better. If you don't do this, you allow the other 2 players to call w/ weak draws and overcards that may hit on turn or river. So that's 4 cards 2 times that you have to dodge if the other 2 call. In this scenario, it didn't work, but it will many times.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn’t have cold called with 66, I’d have folded pairs less than about 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is borderline. I like to have 4-5 seeing the flop w/ pockets... 2 limpers will call (about 95+% of the time), the CO is in... I hope the blinds come in.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


River: (27.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

I would have re-raised.


[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 was silent the entire hand (cold-calling 2 on flop and call 1/call 2 on turn) and now raises the river. This looks like a flush. I'm not raising here. You will lose 2 more BB.


[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I loved MP1's comments after the hand. Classic. As to the coward part, I'll most certainly raise w/74o next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that SOP for you?

[edthayer]

Fold this on the flop. Reverse implied odds here. If you're beat, it's going to be hard to tell, and you'll lose the maximum. If you are ahead, you win the minimum. Against a field this big, you probably don't have the best hand, and you don't have the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, so you can make your set and still lose to flush, or give people a redraw.
Fold, fold, fold!!!

Turn and river are fine. Preflop is borderline. I know I've made calls like this before.

[derick]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read ToP. Read HPFAP. Read SSH. You may have only a 30% chance of winning here (pulling this figure out of the air). By raising, and getting heads up... you may increase your chances of winning by 10% or better. If you don't do this, you allow the other 2 players to call w/ weak draws and overcards that may hit on turn or river. So that's 4 cards 2 times that you have to dodge if the other 2 call. In this scenario, it didn't work, but it will many times.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply,

I must admit I'm reading HEPFAP and SSH but I think my problem is knowing which concept to apply.

My thinking was that with 66 you want to keep people in so that you can spike a third 6 and then go to town. I thought that small pairs play well in multihanded games so you don't want to Check raise the people out?

Or am I applying the wrong concept to this hand?

thanks

Derick

[edthayer]

Spiking a third six is a bad plan of action. You have ONE solid out in this scenario: the 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif creates a possible flush, or at least a redraw for anyone with a lone heart. Once again, you must fold this hand on the flop.

After the miracle on the turn, however, Hero played fine.

[cold_cash]

Pre-flop, yes. Low pairs play best against a lot of opponents because you're hoping to flop a set and collect a bunch of bets. After the flop though, it's a whole new ballgame.

After this flop, my hand is what it is. I'm very rarely going to improve to anything better than a pair of sixes. Knowing that, I have to determine as best as I can how strong my hand is compared to what everyone else is holding, and how far I want to go with it.

In this particular instance, I felt my hand, (a pair of sixes), stood a good chance of being best. I also figured my chances of winning a showdown increased greatly if I could eliminate as many of my opponents as possible, so I check-raised the flop.

I couldn't check and call, hoping to get callers and make a set. If I think my hand (a pair of sixes) is best, I need to eliminate opponents because I'm not going to improve often enough to beat a big field.

If I don't think my hand is best, the pot is not big enough (on the flop) for me to simply call hoping to catch another six.

[cold_cash]

How big does the pot have to be before you advocate trying to win it?

You also have to admit that there's at least SOME chance my hand is best on the flop, no?

[frank_iii]

I'm surprised at the responses here. The preflop call is questionable. After that, IMO:

* the flop raise is horrible...you have middle pair and only one out to improve
* the flop call after 3 cold calls and another raise is even worse...you can't feel you have any sort of hand any more
* after hitting the miracle card on the turn, I'd bet out but the check-raise is ok, I guess, since someone else probably would bet and you maximized the pot
* with 5 players in the hand on the river in a hand which has been raised on every round I just don't think a bet is going to accomplish anything and you're asking for a raise (which you got)

This seems, to me, to be a losing proposition in the long run.

[edthayer]

Yes, you *might* have the best hand. The problems are:

1. You could be drawing to two outs against an overpair.
2. You have several opponents to act after you, and you have no idea what they have or what they're going to do.
3. Two hearts on the board really limit your solid outs.
4. You are in bad position: How do you play the hand if a jack, queen, king, or ace falls on the turn with everyone acting after you?
5. Many common limping hands include tens. It's likely someone else in the crowd was waiting with a ten to checkraise.
6. I can't think of a better example of Reverse implied odds than this hand.

[cold_cash]

I can't believe so many people are saying to roll over after the flop.

The PF call might be a little loose, but it can't be by too much.

I don't have middle pair on the flop. I have a pair BETTER than middle pair.

After the flop 3-bet the pot is gigantic, and if I do happen to catch the 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif making someone's flush on the turn, I would still have outs to beat it.

The river bet is debateable, I'll give you that.

[Sent]

PF call wasn't that bad considering how most people who limp PF won't fold for one more so you had odds. The c/r on the flop was fine, Easypete talked about the odds and it is true if he has overcards then you have him beat, I would bet the flop with any hand I raised with even if I missed it completely.

-Sent

[cold_cash]

So you don't think it's worth the one SB investment on the flop to try and fold everyone out and get heads up with the CO?

If think we need to acknowledge the fact that the CO could have AK (or other overcards), and nobody could have has a Ten. The the pot has 10 SB's in it on the flop, and I have a decent chance at driving out players behind me. I think folding is weak. If I get re-raised on the flop (like I did) and don't improve my hand on the turn I would be ready to give up. I think you have to at least make an attempt to win this one though.

[edthayer]

Sent: I agree, I always bet when I raised PF, and it gets checked to me, no matter how badly the flop misses me. The biggest problem is that the Hero has terrible, terrible reverse implied odds here. Playing this hand out of position just makes it worse.

[frank_iii]

If you can't fold this hand, what hand can you fold? You have, basically, a small middle pair with one out and are faced with calling a raise after 3 people have already cold-called 2 raises. I think you have all the information you need to fold.

Your justification for the 6h being an out for you (runner runner full house) seems very flawed to me.

I do hope you won the hand but I think this sort of flop play is disaster waiting to happen.

[cold_cash]

Do you realize how big the pot is after the CO 3-bets the flop? I admit that when he 3-bets I'm not liking my hand at all, but I'm getting 22:1 to call the raise.

The only reason I mention the runner-runner draw was because everybody was having a cow that the 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif is probably dirty. In other words, even if I DO catch it and someone makes a flush, I'm not sunk.

[Warband]

Preflop is fine.
Fold the flop.

T.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine.
Fold the flop.

T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
So you don't think it's worth the one SB investment on the flop to try and fold everyone out and get heads up with the CO?

[/ QUOTE ]

one? would you call before folding? calling is the worst of your 3 options.

preflop is fine if the BB and the limpers are loose. you have good relative position to bet the flop and try to trap the field when you spike a set.

i'd want a rainbow flop or at least the 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif or some backdoor straight potential to make this check-raise.. or i'd at least need known tight opponents between me and the CO. i think you have a lot of reverse implied odds against you here.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't fold this hand, what hand can you fold? You have, basically, a small middle pair with one out and are faced with calling a raise after 3 people have already cold-called 2 raises. I think you have all the information you need to fold.

Your justification for the 6h being an out for you (runner runner full house) seems very flawed to me.

I do hope you won the hand but I think this sort of flop play is disaster waiting to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You simply don't get it. He tried to get it heads up hoping the better had overcards which he would be a favorite against. That didn't work and there were lots of coldcalls and a raise.

Are you saying that he should have folded for 1 SB on the flop? That's ridiculous, you have to see the turn. I'm not going to calculate the odds but someone should do it for this guy.

[edthayer]

First off, it's two SB you need to invest (to raise), and that's MINIMUM. You wound up paying 3 SB on the flop.

The range of hands that the PF raiser can have beat you here is pretty big:
AA
AT
KK
QQ
JJ
TT
99

The other limpers might have things like:
AT
KT
QT
JT
T9
99
88
77
Not to mention slow-played two-pairs or sets, or any of those weird hands PP players play.

Also, you need to be wary of:
-Anyone with two hearts.
-Anyone with a hole-card higher than six.

It's doubtful you have the best hand on the flop. And, even if you do, it's doubtful it will still be the best hand after two more cards. If someone has not already paired tens, the likelihood of a J,Q,K,or A (any of which will almost seal your doom) falling on the turn or river is higher than 50%.

You have only invested 2 SB in this pot before the flop. Folding the best hand here is a minor mistake. Wait for a better situation to get your money in the pot.

[cold_cash]

Sorry about that. I know what you're saying though, and no I wouldn't have just called the flop bet.

If I had known everybody and his uncle was going to call my flop check-raise, I wouldn't have made it. Sadly though, I didn't find that out until it actually happened.

The flush draw being out there did bring up some concerns. I mentioned in another post that I think this play would be much stronger on a rainbow board, but I wasn't sure if the board being two-toned made it an easy fold (instead of check-raising the flop).

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
You simply don't get it. He tried to get it heads up hoping the better had overcards which he would be a favorite against. That didn't work and there were lots of coldcalls and a raise.

Are you saying that he should have folded for 1 SB on the flop? That's ridiculous, you have to see the turn. I'm not going to calculate the odds but someone should do it for this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do get it. He tried to get it heads up. That's fine. It didn't work. Move along. He now has enough information to realize his chances are minimal. Even 22:1 is not good enough in my mind to hit a 1-outer (or 1.5-outer at best) with the river yet to come. Plus, he could *already* be up against a set and (less likely) his miracle 6d could give someone else a straight.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had known everybody and his uncle was going to call my flop check-raise, I wouldn't have made it. Sadly though, I didn't find that out until it actually happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course you'd prefer to win the whole pot outright on the flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

the rainbow flops help you narrow your opponents holdings when they cold-call. here you won't know if they have Tx, a flush draw, etc. they might pair their 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif or similar and you won't know it until showdown. you have nearly no overlay to the marginal edge you are pushing since you have so few outs when behind.

also, all second pairs are not equal. 99 would be better to do this with than 66 to avoid some of the side-card pairings. every marginal improvement you can get will help when your edge is this small.

[B Dids]

Cash, you know you played right, move on.

I don't like the thinking that eliminates the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif as an out.

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? You have favorable position for the c/r to drive out the other players ( that worked out well). And just because the CO raise pf, doesn't mean PP... More often than not, it's overcards.

Overcards that may raise here:
AK (16 combinations), AQ (16 combinations), AJ(16 combinations), KQ (16 combinations), QJs (4 combinations), KJs (4 combinations), KTs (4 combinations)

Pockets that may raise here:
AA-JJ (6 combinations each = 24 combinations) TT (3 combinations left), 99 = 6 combinations.

You are 76:33 (overcards:pairs) ==&gt; 2.3:1. You may have the best hand here, a raise is good... The 3-bet lets you know you might just be up against an overpair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response.

I agree the CR is good if you have a good chance of clearing the field, but on a loose table, will the CR do it's job enough to make it worth it?

The hand becomes extremely difficult to play (it would for me at least) when even 1 other player is in, or you get 3-bet (if you don't hit the 6 of course).