verbalization at the table

i really don't like having to say 'raise' when i want to raise in a game. problem is, it is quicker, because i can be pulling the chips from my stack while the next guy is deciding. this instead of pulling the chips i want to raise with from the stack and then placing them in the middle. sometimes that's just too many chips.


is there some kind of way out of having to verbalize or vocalize your intention to raise? i am a quiet guy, and have not been allowed to raise becuase the dealer didn't hear me mumble 'raise'

"is there some kind of way out of having to verbalize or vocalize your intention to raise?"


The only reason you gave for vocalizing was that it's quicker. Hardly a good enough reason to do what you don't want to do. I'm in the habit of having raising chips at the ready without vocals. I don't think it distracts me or slows the game.


Tommy

When I used to play 3-6 and 6-12 (with 2 dollar chips) I stacked all my chips in piles of 12 chips. I would then cut one stack into two 6 chip stacks.


Pre-flop or on the flop shoving in a short stack would be a raise.


On the turn or the river, putting in a short stack would be a call. I pushed a large stack in for a raise, cutting it into two stacks of 6 chips when it was out there to make it easier for the dealer to verify.


This was very fast and saved me the trouble of counting chips when it was my turn to act. I've never seen another player use this method of arranging their chips in stacks of two big bets.

I have never had a problem with the action getting past me and if it does then it is the dealers fault not yours.

I agree that for some players vocals are bad if they don't have a strong voice. I like the chip stack idea and I think you should try it.

I find that it is important to act quickly in order to change the minds of those acting behind but do what is most comfortable for you.

1 Leg Lance

I never call or limp, I always raise, so there's never any question at the table about my intentions. /images/smile.gif


Seriously, if you intend to raise, grab a whole bunch of chips so that, if your quiet voice is not heard, there's no question you had enough chips in your hand to raise and it should be allowed.

Make a thumbs-up motion when you want to raise. A few cardrooms/tournaments don't allow this, so be sure to ask first if it's okay.


Also, try stacking your chips ahead of time. If you're playing 4-8, for example, keep a couple 8-chip piles handy.


TRLS

"I'm in the habit of having raising chips at the ready without vocals."


Thanks Tommy.


-Zeno

Some different advice for you Baggins. It is my opinion that you should learn to state what you are going to do at the Poker table. It has a number of benefits.


There is never any question of your intentions. You can state, I raise (or call etc.) and gage reactions of other players while you are putting in your chips. It (usually) helps to strengthen your table image. If you ever play pot- or no-limit it is very helpful as you can state raise - and then decide by how much. There are other reason also, not the least being that you don't give away your intentions prematurely.


Just because you are a quiet guy is no excuse not to learn to verbalize at the Poker Table. In the long run, it has many positive benefits.


-Zeno

"I've never seen another player use this method of arranging their chips in stacks of two big bets."


I'd say about half the mid-limit players do that around here at some point with two small bets. But the stacks aren't sitting out there needing to be grabbed and placed like your method. They are in hand, the kind of bets that spray out from under into two slid bets or one stacked and one slid. I think this is a more effective way of betting because the opponents don't get to sit there and watch you reach for little stacks and put them in, sometimes this way, sometimes that, sometimes this tempo, sometimes that. And with any easy access to a non-large stack, this method equates to having two big bets ready to launch, because one need only reach back for and grab one big bet, six or eight chips, while a big bet is still in hand.


Tommy

I generally don't want to delay the game and dislike players who leave chips in their racks and take forever to act.


However, HOW you raise is also part of the skill of "playing the players."


I play a lot of 4-8 and can always cut a stack easily within one chip of what I want to do.


I think its a strategy tool to vary how you raise.


My suggestion is for you to place your concern about speed and vocalization a little lower than how you can raise, different ways. (I know some players want the reverse - same actions no matter what)


Sometime I take stack large enough for a raise but only leave a call. Sometimes I put out a call and at the same time say raise and go back for more. (Not a string bet)


Mostly when I raise I make on quick motion leaving one stack then another adjacent, to show the call and raise, and don't say anything.


I want opponents to pay attention to me as a threat. I want to draw attention, (is he calling, or raising or what).


I always quickly act when it is my turn, but I am ready as soon as I can legally act. I just want to vary my behavior.


IMO

let me elaborate a bit.


the reason i don't like to be vocalizing is that when i say 'raise' i sometimes put out 1 bet, then reach back for the second. or in the 4-8 game, which is played with $1 and $5 chips, sometimes i put in 2 $5 chips, or sometimes i put in a stack of more than 4 white chips, then complete the raise from my reserves. thing is, im not sure what the ruling would be in my cardroom if i were to put in, say, 5 white chips on the flop, intending to raise, without saying 'raise' and then went back for more chips. i've seen confusion when others have done this, and the dealer has pushed back the 'extra' chip because they thought it was a call, and the player just left it as a call. but other times this same situation has caused problems because the player intended to raise. i haven't seen a floor ruling on it though, because it was resolved without calling the floor (i prefer calling the floor for almost any ruling that isn't immediately resolved with all players' consent, but whatever).


i guess my point is that there are many options for raising, and making sure your raise is legal. fastest is a consideration in my cardroom because i think that sometimes the dealers are slow, and the players are most certainly slow, and id like to get in more hands per hour than we do. i don't want to hold up that process, but i don't want to sacrifice anything in my game for a couple extra hands to fold per hour. that being said, i think that poker should be a game that can be played without saying a word. this includes announcing raises. i tend to be quiet at the table, and have had my announcements of 'raise' go unheard by the dealer resulting in a call when a raise or a fold was my option, and costing me a pot in some instances. i have since then learned to speak up, but i have to do it consciously, and sometimes i forget to speak up. i am a neat chip stacker, in that i keep my chips in stacks of 20 in the game, and draw from the short stacks to bet. we also use both red and white chips in ou game, which can make raising and folding unclear sometimes. i could start to keep the chips in 'bet' and 'raise' stacks, i guess. i haven't tried that yet.


in response to Zeno: yes, i do aim for using the same motions when betting, raising, or calling. i don't want to give off any tells (or get in the habit of giving them off) by the way i bet. i realize that in the 4-8 game, if anybody is looking for tells, they either don't know what they are doing, or they are a solid player anyways, and i should already know to watch out for the rest of their game. but most aren't looking for tells, and i shouldn't be too worried about it. but i don't want to start any bad habits that can come back to hurt me when i eventually move up levels. also, while one can be more of a threat by always vocalizing raises, there are instances where the guy who never says a word, just silently raises every time he plays is the one to be feared at the table. i want to have all resources available to me at the table, and i want to be able to do whatever is most effective in any given situation. this is why i don't always want to be announcing 'raise'.

Andy,


Is it possible that an action such as you propose might be ignored by the dealer, since in so many places, the rules aren't really codified,

thus subject to, shall we say, broad interpretation?


perfidious

The rule in my local room is that if a player puts out half or more of a raise, he must complete the raise. If he puts out less than half the raise, that is a call. So on the first round of a $15/30 hold'em game, if someone puts out four chips it's a call, and if he puts out five chips it's a raise. They are pretty consistent about not allowing string raises. I'd ask someone what the rule is in your local room.


During tournaments, I always announce my raises, because I sometimes have trouble remembering what the limits are. In cash games, I tend to play my hands in silence. I don't want the inflection in my voice to give anything away. I don't want the fact that I announced my raise last time and I didn't announce it this time to give anything away, either. Most of the games I play are 3 chip/6 chip games. I generally riffle two stacks of six chips each, which gives me a big bet and a raise at the ready. When I play 4 chip/8 chip games, I riffle two stacks of eight chips each, which is more work. /images/smile.gif I mostly play stud, a slower game, and sometimes hold'em games go faster than I do. I don't mind slowing them down just a hair to my pace from time to time. /images/smile.gif

Well, if a card club requires the verbal declaration of the word "raise," then of course you need to say it loud enough for all, or at least the dealer, to hear. But everywhere I've played, either a verbal declaration or enough chips placed in the pot to raise, is acceptable. So, if for example, the bet is 4 chips, and you want to raise, if you grab a bunch of chips, way more than 8, and start to measure them out in the betting area, there's no question you're raising.