Thoughts on getting staked (Long)

[bigfishead]

I Played a tournament yesterday, 90 players $120 buy-in, NL.
I played my normal NL tournament game which is extremely tight, especially early as far as calling any raises. So much so that for the first 3 levels I only saw 1 flop. Even mucking 1010 in the BB to a button raises from 1 of 2 other tight asses. I even commented on that hand " Anyone but you" and I shove or call at a minimum.

Well this guy grabs me after the 2nd break. I am at about 2 1/2 times my original stack and have shown only 1 hand. He explains to me he is part of a company or group that is looking to "invest" in tournament players. He says that he is interested in me. Likes my game.

So here's how it works. I let them know which tournaments I want to enter in the upcoming month. The buy-ins, rebuys, etc. They shoot me the money. I play as I wish in those events. All "cashes" are split 50/50 AFTER the entry.

1 problem I see for myself: Hypothetically, I cash $200,000.00 in an event. (after entry fee lets say). I get a w2g for 200k. Give them 100k and get hammered for taxes of 200k at a 30% tax bracket so I can only net 40k. I would expect that they must allow me to "write-off" my payoff back to them. But we havent even gotten to that level of discussion yet. Seems like if not, I am only playing for 20%. While this may be a way to slowly build up a BR, It doesnt exactly excite me. Now if there is a way to actually CLEAR say 40% then I am interested. Any Thoughts?

I felt it was certainly a compliment to my game. While I have not been cashing hardly at all for the last month or 2, I can say I have made only 1 mistake in the last 7 tournaments I played. A read I didnt go with. Yesterday was another played "perfect" day. And for the 7th tournament in a row I got knocked out/crushed on a big hand pre-flop vs a bigger hand. 7 times in a row I have had either QQ or KK and faced an over pair preflop. Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.
I only lasted 2 more hands but was so poorly stacked it didnt matter. Ended up 15th. I know I made the right play for the right reasons. So I have been "running bad" lately when it comes to "cashing" at tournaments. No biggie. I have played well. Statistically it's a huge oddity but hey it happens. But it still is tough keeping my chin up. Then this guy shows up. wow, ty sir. nice compliment. I was one of only 2 people he said he has witnessed with interest in the area. wow, ty sir.

We will be corresponding via e-mail and such to get a better idea of things in the near future. Right now tho I am interested in any thoughts or questions y'all may think of that I need to look at or be aware of.

Thanks in advance everyone. I'll keep ya up to date on the subject.

[Poker Junkie]

Big,

I don't have the experience that most of the other posters have on here but here are my thoughts. Your "investors" are taking all the risk and any money that you get is a bonus. Unless you play for a living and playing these other tournaments with the "investors" money will cut into your normal (hopefully profitable) use of poker time. Godd luck and definately let us know what's up. Hell, I'd take 10% just to keep from having to play all these crazy free-rolls all the time /images/graemlins/grin.gif But that might be because I'm po' folk.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gifWalt

[GrinningBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might need to work on stack management and pot odds before you worry as much about getting staked. It's never a good play to bet 2/3 of your stack pre-flop, and it's absolutely criminal to fold when you're getting 7-1 to call with QQ even if you are 90% sure you're beat.

As far as the offer you have, you might want to do some research on this group and see what kind of other 'investments' they pursue. If it's on the up and up, it might allow you to play higher than normal for a period, if for no other reason than to test your skills at the higher stakes. That said, there's something to be said for being your own man, ya know?

[PokerGoblin]

Interesting post. Yes I would definitely take that as a compliment. A few thoughts:

1) You need to find out if this guy will stake you into the really big events, because that's the only way you're going to make any decent money. If all he can stake is the smaller buy-in you're better off using your own money. However if they're willing to stake you into the 5k and 10k buy in events at the WSOP ot WPT for example, then the payout if you do well are worth your time even splitting the prize.

2) Are they willing to provide travel/lodging arrangments as well?

3) Consider your probability for success. Even the best tourney players in the would don't cash in every tournament. Usually the payout schedule starts with the final 10%. Furthermore generally the bottom 10% in the money just receive their buy in back. So you will really have to do well to have a profitable experience.

4) As far as the taxes go, I don't think you have to pay taxes on the whole amount if your have to pay your backers. Talk to a tax attorney about it. Another person you may want to contact is someone who posts frequently on here, his handle is acesover8s. I know he has some experience in that subject.

Hope that helps

PG

[fnurt]

When you get a W-2G, you can identify any other individuals who will be receiving a portion of the money. They are responsible for the tax on their portion, not you.

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might need to work on stack management and pot odds before you worry as much about getting staked. It's never a good play to bet 2/3 of your stack pre-flop, and it's absolutely criminal to fold when you're getting 7-1 to call with QQ even if you are 90% sure you're beat.

As far as the offer you have, you might want to do some research on this group and see what kind of other 'investments' they pursue. If it's on the up and up, it might allow you to play higher than normal for a period, if for no other reason than to test your skills at the higher stakes. That said, there's something to be said for being your own man, ya know?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I didnt get into detailed amounts, as that wasnt as relevant. But it was 2k-4k blinds, 300 ante. I utg open raised to 12k, which was in the correct range, especially considering many lessor hands could have gotten involved(JJ did), leaving me with a nice edge. After the bet I had under 10k, so the actual amount wasnt quite 2/3rds but over 1/2. I knew I was too big a dog, was getting actually about 6-1, and I took a long time but knew I had to muck. I gave myself the best shot, and knew exactly where I was at. A chip and a chair. Not calling with a loser when the odds are not in my favor, and more importantly knowing the "gap concept" and "I'm borke, I'm out". I have taking lessor stacks to the final table and won, so dont try to talk to my about management. Oh and I was 100% sure I was beat. I know my main oppnents play well, and the SB was a 50/05 shot to have me beat.

Second part:

Yes I do believe it is very much on the up & up, and is a business with real "investors". From the info I have gathered thus far, it is in fact a business but thanks for the thoughts on it, I will certainly pay close attn and go on my reads there.

Playing at a higher level is certainly of interest to me too. I know many of those top players you have seen on tv quite well. I have dealt to many of them for some time. I know a bit about their games. And what you may have seen on tv is a small bit. So the challenge is natually of great interest to me also. I am not intimidated but look forward to that challenge. However, I also have told them I have no interest in quitting my job to run around on tour for 3-4 months, end up not cashing as is certainly possible and get cut loose as a bad investment. I would only pick certain events that I can get the time off for. Now if I am very successful, and end up with a nice BR, I could rethink that thought.

Being your own man is something to consider. It can also be an ego problem. I will certainly look at both sides of the equation. I dont want to egotitstically "be my own man", and pass an opportunity to improve my "manhood". It is certainly possible, this will allow me some growth in my own self-evaluation of my game as well as growth in my wallet. Neither can be bad.

Thanks for your thoughts. More for me to nibble on.

[bigfishead]

Thanks for your reply Goblin.

1) It appears they are willing to allow for entry into larger events. More will be revealed.

2) Doesnt appear so. But this is so early in discussion I cant say for sure.

3) Understood.

4) Thanks, I may contact him.

[gergery]

If you are a winning player, then getting staked is an EV- proposition at a given entry fee level. The only reason to do it is to spread risk -- you can play at a $ level higher than you could afford to otherwise, and the return from playing there compensates for having to share the higher return.

You are in essence paying your backer to reduce your variance, which can be a great idea, but only if you can't afford the variance yourself.

--Greg

[bigfishead]

I really only see your point in regard to variance as relevant. That sustains the BR to play in the events. Understood. I am not financially able to enter large buy-in events. The point has already been made about being given a chance to move up to these higher limits. That is certainly a plus. There are a number of quite famous tournament players that sell themselves out a certain % in most all the big events. Some of them do it because the are once again broke from lousy play in high stakes games. Others are broke from the craps table. Others just seem to rather NEVER use their own money and keep rat-holeing it while people will put them in for a percentage. I am aware of some who get full buy-in and backer gets 40%. Interesting.

The aspect of if you are a winning player losing EV by taking on backers isn't relavent in this discussion particularly, because the issue isnt about EV...in this discussion. Yet I perfectly understand your point and naturally agree.

Thanks for your comments.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I didnt get into detailed amounts, as that wasnt as relevant. But it was 2k-4k blinds, 300 ante. I utg open raised to 12k, which was in the correct range, especially considering many lessor hands could have gotten involved(JJ did), leaving me with a nice edge. After the bet I had under 10k, so the actual amount wasnt quite 2/3rds but over 1/2. I knew I was too big a dog, was getting actually about 6-1, and I took a long time but knew I had to muck. I gave myself the best shot, and knew exactly where I was at. A chip and a chair. Not calling with a loser when the odds are not in my favor, and more importantly knowing the "gap concept" and "I'm borke, I'm out". I have taking lessor stacks to the final table and won, so dont try to talk to my about management. Oh and I was 100% sure I was beat. I know my main oppnents play well, and the SB was a 50/05 shot to have me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is still a terrible fold. Passing up 6-1 is bad enough, but the fact that you will be posting nearly half your stack in the BB the next hand makes it even worse.

[bigfishead]

no it isnt...when you no you are thouroughly trash beaten it is an excellent fold...un-real stupidity questioning this. do you call with pocket 2's? they have the same value. Why would anyone think THAT would be a good call?

Give yourself another chance by getting on to the next hand.

[MLG]

If you raised that much with pocket 2s utg, and then folded when you were getting close to 6-1 to call, yes it would be a bad fold. The initial raise would be bad, but the fold would also be.

You are getting 6-1 odds to call the rest of your stack here. At that point even if you are behind and will only win when you hit your set, you have to call. You are going to triple up if you win, which makes it absolutely the right decision.

Bigfish, my guess is that you are a cash game player by nature, and probably a successful one. However, you need to make adjustments as you move late into tournaments and blinds climb. You cannot ignore pot-odds this heavily in your favor simply because you will be out if you lose.

I understand you say you habe won with shorter stacks before, and this is undoubtedly true, but you are missing a crucial point. Those times you won with a shorter stack you actually had to get luckier than you would have to get in this pot if you just threw the rest of your chips in and hoped to triple up. I don't mean to be harsh here, but we all should be constantly examining our games looking for wholes, and this is clearly one in yours.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
when you no you are thouroughly trash beaten it is an excellent fold...un-real stupidity questioning this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, since I'm the unreal stupid one, please explain to me in detail why choice B is better than choice A (extra credit for spelling "know" correctly).

A) Calling 9,000 to win 50,000 as a likely 4:1 dog.

B) Posting 4,000 in the BB and either playing a random hand against what is likely to be the best hand on the table for 20,000 total or folding and posting the 2,000 SB with only 3,000 behind.

Your move genius.

[bigfishead]

Trying for extra credit:

I knew, now was the time to know the numbers, and found my answer to be no, it's close however.

My thoughts during this hand.
1) I KNOW I am beaten BAD. I KNOW he has precisely AA. I think SB COULD have me beat too. I think it's 60-40 I have him beat.

2) I'm getting 6:1. Sb makes it more attractive by having added to the pot to make it such. I think I am 8.5:1 dog because I need to flop a set and the chances of the flop making me a straight, or flush that isnt dominated by his Aces is slimmer due also to the fact that SB is involved, hence tying up my str8 cards more so. I dont know how much to add to my chances of those hands getting there to be clearer on my odds. Wish I knew my math better. But I think I am effectively close.

3) PROBABLY most influential to this decision: The last 6 tournaments in a row, I have been crushed or busted out deep in the events with precisely QQ or KK vs an overpair EACH TIME. I called every one(or was the initiator). This certainly has had a big influence I am sure. It's an anomoly(correct word?) to be sure. But man it's a psychlogical fukkin pounding too. Like beating your head against a wall so when you stop you can say you feel better.

Interestingly I just ran the numbers on TTH thru 500k hands.
The queens won 76976 times. So 6:1 is very close.

Yes I always am looking for holes in my game. ALWAYS. Maybe in fact this is one. But I dont think it is as large as y'all make it out to be. Yet I could be wrong there too. I am not trying to justify it. I just find it hard to accept calling in this spot given the circumstances and KNOWING/believing, I am beat, and "you lose, your out". Hell it almost seems like an better gamble to shove in the dark in the BB next hand. So I guess I am still not convinced I did the wrong thing here. Certainly particularly because once the flop was out I would not have made a better hand. But I try not to look at it in those terms. This thread as certainly given me much to think about. Thanks.

[Kopefire]

If this is Lyle Berman / Lakes Gaming I'd say you should pass just because you will be chewed up and spit out. Lyle's never owned anything he didn't use up and throw away.

Just my $.02 after having done business with the man before.

[bigfishead]

Lyle isnt involved as far as I know. I will take that into consideration and I certainly will check out who is involved. Thanks.

[sam h]

Bigfishhead,

A very useful resource for figuring out odds is www.twodimes.net/poker. (http://www.twodimes.net/poker.) You can input the hands everybody holds and it will tell you exactly how often you will win at showdown. In this case, twodimes say that against AA and JJ you will win about 17% of the time, so you were about a 5:1 dog.

I would argue that the call thus is not that close. It may only be marginally EV+, but posting the BB and playing a random hand for half your stack or folding are both very EV- options, so in comparison calling seems pretty good.

If you were on the bubble, it may be a different story. But even then, I would probably have gambled since tournaments put such a premium on cashing in the top three spots. Better to bubble 7 times and win once than to squeak into the money 8 times.

While we might have different opinions about this one hand, it sounds like you are a very good tourney player and I look forward to discussing hands with you in the future. We all can work on our games, and being able to do so together is what makes this board great IMO.

Sam

[Rick Diesel]

There is actually a form that you would file for this particular purpose. The form lets you deduct amounts that you pay to your backers from your winnings, so the backers will pay the tax on that portion, not you. I do not remember the exact number of the form, but if you did a search of the archives here you will find it.

Rick Diesel

[joecatz]

[ QUOTE ]

Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.
I only lasted 2 more hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude,

The problem with the play isn't the READ, as a retarded monkey could figure out that one of them had AA or KK in that situation, it's that you OVERBET YOUR HAND FROM UTG. And I'm not sure what's worse, the overbet, or the fold.

When you make a 2/3 stack raise from that position you are COMMITING YOURSELF TO THE POT. You are saying to the rest of the table "If you're coming in, you better have a hand good enough to come over me with, cause I'm firing the rest of my stack on the flop, or calling your re-rqaise before then, regardless.

What's the purpose of making such a huge raise there, especially with queens? Moreover, WHAT HANDS ARE GOING TO CALL THAT BET, AND WHAT WERE YOU HOPING TO ACHEIVE? It sounds like you wanted to steal the blinds from UTG... A raise to 4x the BB or so will have the same desired effect, and be much easier to get away from if you run into that situation.

Also, I made 7 to 12 mistakes on friday at the Borgata tourney and cashed anyway. Anyone wanna back me?

[freemont]

[ QUOTE ]

I felt it was certainly a compliment to my game. While I have not been cashing hardly at all for the last month or 2, I can say I have made only 1 mistake in the last 7 tournaments I played. A read I didnt go with. Yesterday was another played "perfect" day. And for the 7th tournament in a row I got knocked out/crushed on a big hand pre-flop vs a bigger hand. 7 times in a row I have had either QQ or KK and faced an over pair preflop. Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.
I only lasted 2 more hands but was so poorly stacked it didnt matter. Ended up 15th. I know I made the right play for the right reasons. So I have been "running bad" lately when it comes to "cashing" at tournaments. No biggie. I have played well. Statistically it's a huge oddity but hey it happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok not to be rude, but you say you have made only one mistake in your past 7 tournaments yet describe two mistakes you made on one hand in the tournament you claim to have "played perfect" in.
Mistake #1 your stack is less than 5.5x the BB you need to push all-in with QQ UTG no two ways about it. Unless of course you are trying to encourage someone to call or come over the top, I guess I can see that, but if that is the case you simply cannot fold when someone does come over the top. You are being paranoid because 6 times in a row you've run up against a bigger pocket pair, but you have the third best starting, what better chance do you want to double up when you are short stacked??? I don't care how good your read is, it cannot be 100% like you claim. You really could never see your opponent making this play with AK? I mean if you've played with him so much that you know 100% he must have aces, then he's probably played with you enough to know you're a weak-tight player capable of folding QQ when it only costs you 10K more to call in which case he can make this play on a wider range of hands (and certainly AK is in the range of hands that even the biggest rock would think about pushing with this late in a tourney.) The fold, obviously, is your second mistake, not even Phil "the master of the big laydown" Helmuth would ever consider making this fold...

[bigfishead]

AGAIN>>>>I knew this player WAY TOO WELL...I stated before the flop he had ACES...He may as well have turned them faceup.

[bigfishead]

read again...my raise was 3 x the BB

[bigfishead]

TYVM for your thoughts. I too look forward to it.