Online versus Vegas success - thoughts?

[meshuggah]

Been playing for 6 months. Serious student of game. Read WLLH and SSH multiple times each. Have been winning steady at .25/.5- and .50/1 online (earning $3/hr). Went to vegas this week and played 1-3 at Excal, 2-4 at Monte Carlo, and 1-2 at Luxor. Played about 10 hours over two days. I played tight and aggressive, did my best, but got killed. I just could not figure out what I was doing wrong - if anything. Anyone else go to vegas and get clobbered at these low limits? I couldn't protect a hand to save my life, had 3-4 people seing the river with me always when I was in a pot, I'm getting drawn out on constantly by drunken fools. Did I just get a serious run of bad luck/cards (on flop and post flop) or what??? Any thoughts - similar or different stories? thanks

[TheHip41]

10 hours X 30 hands an hour = 300 hands. Uh, where is sample size man?

[thirddan]

i agree, one weekend is not enough to tell anything...

ps. meshuggah rocks...

[mauisupaman]

I just came back from Vegas a couple of weeks ago and played mostly 8-16 and 10-20, but I tried to get my friends to play poker and made them sit down at the Monte 2-4 and Excal 1-3 (we passed on the luxor as it was too claustrophobic). So, we got drunk and played. And let me tell you those guys were horrible.

I would 3bet and idiot and another would cold call with Q4 and flop bottom two. I'd be so drunk that I'd raise with AQ UTG and fire barrels on every street to the river and with three other opponents calling all the way (even the river bet) I won with A high. I suspect you'd be able to win in these games b/c the players are so bad, but you'd experience gigantic swings.

A hui hou,
Adam

[bisonbison]

Guys, this one time, I didn't win. Is poker my game?

[meshuggah]

thanks for the perspective - I guess in my steaming from the past few days, I quickly forgot poker is one big session. will go up and down, but good play will prevail at the end. thanks

[bdk3clash]

It's pretty obvious you were running well for 6 months and then your win rate came crashing back to earth against the tough competition at the Excalibur 1-3, Monte Carlo 2-4, and the Luxor 1-2.

(Non-smartass answer: You had a bad run. It happens to all of us. It happens all the time. Get used to it, and don't sweat it.)

[MrHorace]

Meshuggah,
I'm in the opposite situation from you. I've been playing live 2/4 for about 11 months now, maybe 15-20 sessions and have found it to be a real struggle. From many postings in these forums, and my whining (I admit), I'm going to take everyone's advice and play online starting at 0.5/1, and go from there. I trust that over time I'll win enough to pay for my B&M experiences.

The issue w/these low level live games is many fold: 1) Some people don't know what they are doing, but through the luck of the cards, they beat you. 2)they get drunk, don't care, and do all kinds of things that mess up the game including your results. 3)To them it's entertainment while to serious poker players, it's a study in progress like a college education, say.

How to beat the situation: I'm still working on this, but have some thoughts:

1. In these crazy games, play only the absolute best cards, i.e. extra tight;
2. I may get beat up here, but fold early rather than later. So, if a lot of people are in the action, and you have an okay hand, count folding as a successful move.
3. One thought that just came to mind is that it's more difficult to be patient live vs. on-line. The adrenaline thing, and playing only one table, leads to impatience I propose.

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but wanted to offer my thoughts.
Good Luck,
MrHorace

[meshuggah]

great response - thank you - tip # 3 I think is dead on - very good point. thanks

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
The issue w/these low level live games is many fold: 1) Some people don't know what they are doing, but through the luck of the cards, they beat you. 2)they get drunk, don't care, and do all kinds of things that mess up the game including your results. 3)To them it's entertainment while to serious poker players, it's a study in progress like a college education, say.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are problems?

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]

The issue w/these low level live games is many fold: 1) Some people don't know what they are doing, but through the luck of the cards, they beat you. 2)they get drunk, don't care, and do all kinds of things that mess up the game including your results. 3)To them it's entertainment while to serious poker players, it's a study in progress like a college education, say.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why those games are so profitable! I hope points 1-3 never change! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[NotReady]

Your sample size is way meaningless but a couple things anyway -

Live low limit is MUCH looser generally than anything except micro online. Thus much bigger swings, more bad beats, etc.

Also, live 2-4 and 1-3 may be close to unbeatable when factoring in rake, jackpot drop and tip. The percentage of these to the pot is enormous compared to online.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, live 2-4 and 1-3 may be close to unbeatable when factoring in rake, jackpot drop and tip. The percentage of these to the pot is enormous compared to online.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've logged about a dozen 3/6 excursions at my local B&M this year. I'm down about $500. I sat down and figured out what I paid in jackpot, rake, dealer tips, and food (which I always paid out of my chips) and came up with between $500 and $1,000.

Clearly my play was also sub-par. Even if I was breaking even before rake and other expenses, that's a mediocore performance at these limits, and thanks to the lessons I've learned on this forum I now know some of the reasons why.

I think low level B&M is beatable by a good player, but the disporportionate costs make it difficult. My recommendation is to move up a limit or two where the games are supposedly still loose, but where rake will be a much lower percentage of your pots. In fact I'm staying on line until I can get a bigger bankroll to support higher B&M limits...

[NotReady]

I think a really good live 3/6 is beatable if the rake isn't too severe, below that it would be very tough, but I've never played lower.

I've logged quite a few live 3/6 and 4/8, and one thing I did was tip the waitress $.50 instead of $1.00 - I would play 6-8 hour sessions, and the waitresses understood and didn't mind. I also would not necessarily tip the dealer each and every pot, but would toss a dollar from a decent sized pot only.

I don't think that's being stingy, others may disagree, but add it up - makes a big difference over tme and I think it's a fair amount - also, I tipped a bunch when I participated in jackpot or tournament money.

[KowCiller]

MrHorace,

I tend to disagree with you on your points. Specifically, to play extra tight in loose crazy games. I think when the entire table is looser, you should loosen. Especially hands like suited connectors and suited 1 gaps. These go way up in value when you have so many people willing to pay you off when you hit. Hands like unsuited broadway cards seem to go down in value, as they are often played for Top Pair, good kicker value. While these hands are still good and are +EV, they are more susceptible to being beaten in these loose games by 9 others playing rags too far and hitting their 2pairs. (of course, major profit happens when they dont hit their 5 outers!)

Plus, since presumably the hero plays much better than the other schmuck-os, he can make better decisions about when to get the heck out of dodge.

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I find it much tougher to be patient on-line than as opposed to live. It seems like for me, it's much easier to click that call button instead of throwing chips in the middle. (perhaps this is one reason why it seems I can consistently beat mid-limit b&m games but really struggle in low limit online games, I'm still trying to figure this out though...)

If I'm way off base with these thoughts, someone set me straight please /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[4spades]

Gotta agree with kowciller, I'm also constantly beating low and mid limit B&M while online seems a problem. I think the geographic location of the game may have something to do with this, games in the west are typically looser and more agressive than games in the northeast.

I also agree with the fact that it's easier to click the call button than toss your chips in the middle.

[IndieMatty]

Are we talking the metalcore Meshuggah, or the yiddish insult?

If it's the first, agreed. The latter...well still agreed.

[Alexthegreat]

I think live games are far easier than online games.....first off, spotting fish is much easier live....secondly, playing with real chips concerns me more than icon chips....

If you are worried about the rake and the tipping and food and everything like that...here is an easy solution......

1. Tip once every 4 or 5 pots.....this should work out to around $1 per hour.....The dealers @ low limits understand....No one will call you cheap...

2. Don't order food or drinks.....Bring some along if you are gonna be playing for 4-8 hours

This could save you as much as 3 BBs per session, and if you play everyday, it could be the difference between a winning or losing month......

[MrHorace]

KCMO,
Thanks for the counter-opinion to my post. It's good to spark other opinions, and get thoughts and ideas from others.

As topspin and Malcolm pointed out, the loose games w/drunks is what makes them profitable. I do agree w/this as I've taken advantage of this myself often. I think I'm just not experienced enough yet to optimize my gains from playing in loose games.

I think you did bring up a good point in that in the loose games, the speculative hands like suited connectors, and suited one gaps tend to be more profitable, and should be played moreso, while off-suited broadways should be played cautiously.

I do stand by my original thoughts though, but admit I may be wrong in my thinking. Perhaps 3-6 months from now I'll have a changed opinion.

[Evan]

That reminds me of this time I asked a girl if she liked me, but she said, "no".

[Rudbaeck]

3 is correct, 1&2 are not. I refer the entire discussion to Ed Miller's excellent work on the topic.

If you have a 15% chance of winning and 10 players are in the pot, you will make money over time. It's a bumpy ride getting there, but don't fall into being weak-tight. Expected value baby! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[thirddan]

yes...

[MrHorace]

Yes, Rud, I am learning a la SSH, and have to say it's helping me TREMENDOUSLY. One of MY problems was I was/am weak-tight. (Maybe that's why I posted the way I did /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Anyhow, have only played once or twice (Currently just B&M, but moving to on-line very soon), but noticed a big difference in my game/success rate. Hanging in to the end w/mediocre hands mid-pair w/good kicker, backdoor draws, that I certainly folded on, in my old way of playing, but stayed in, calling & betting where appropriate, and wouldn't you know it, I'd win!!

Thanks for moving me along!

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Went to vegas this week and played 1-3 at Excal, 2-4 at Monte Carlo, and 1-2 at Luxor. Played about 10 hours over two days.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this the first time you have done something like this? There are issues an online 0.5/1 player is going to have to cope with.

1. The BB is up to four times larger than you are used to. That could make some players weak, passive, or nervous.

2. Do you have glaring tells? Are you showing your cards?

3. Ten hours over two days is a lot for someone with no experience. Did you become tired?

4. Did you tilt? Maybe a little?

I wasn't there so I don't know what happened. I suggest you reflect on your experience and see if you can find any problems.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
Meshuggah,

The issue w/these low level live games is many fold: 1) Some people don't know what they are doing, but through the luck of the cards, they beat you. 2)they get drunk, don't care, and do all kinds of things that mess up the game including your results. 3)To them it's entertainment while to serious poker players, it's a study in progress like a college education, say.

How to beat the situation: I'm still working on this, but have some thoughts:

1. In these crazy games, play only the absolute best cards, i.e. extra tight;
2. I may get beat up here, but fold early rather than later. So, if a lot of people are in the action, and you have an okay hand, count folding as a successful move.
3. One thought that just came to mind is that it's more difficult to be patient live vs. on-line. The adrenaline thing, and playing only one table, leads to impatience I propose.

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but wanted to offer my thoughts.
Good Luck,
MrHorace

[/ QUOTE ]

In low limit games, you should not be playing extra tight, your throwing away lots of money, and its much much harder to wait for premium hands when your playing 1 table x 30 hands an hour instead of 4 tables x 60 hands an hour. Waiting an hour to get AK cracked by something like 62 will just make you curse the poker gods and question your game even more. If your opponents are playing garbage hands, you should be able to loosen up your selection of hands.

Just play smart, and what you know to be winning poker
gl
gamblore

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, this one time, I didn't win. Is poker my game?


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the perspective - I guess in my steaming from the past few days, I quickly forgot poker is one big session. will go up and down, but good play will prevail at the end. thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

you got all that from bisons smart ass remark?

[MrHorace]

I definitely learned something here! Glad I wasn't shy, and expressed my views, as they are, and knowing they might be contradictive to playing well in loose games!

Awesome!