Something I've Noticed

[sthief09]

I get more respect for my raises out of the blinds than from any other position, including UTG. coincidence?

[Evan]

You can't have a thoery w/o a hypothesis. Why do you think that is so?

[Joe Tall]

Then make sure you raise JTs and all suited broadway out of the blinds.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

I do that already, thanks to you


happy birthday

[Malcom Reynolds]

Maybe people notice it more?

From the blinds, the raise will only put more money in, it won't really knock people out. So it's got to be good?

Maybe they think that raising anywhere else pf is often just an attempt to knock people out, rather than saying something about the quality of a hand?

Maybe it's just a blip and Sample Size Man needs to make an appearance?

[sthief09]

I disagree. I think it's because most players don't raise much out of the blinds, so they assume for you to do it that you must have a good hand.

A similar concept is one that I read in Poker Essays II yesterday. Mason claims that habitual bluffers are almost very loose callers because they always think that their opponents are bluffing like they are.

I definitely think the way a player plays will give him a biased view of other players. if you're a very tight raise, raising only with AA and KK, then you'll look at your play as normal, but my play as maniacal. If you're raising with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and AQ consistently then you'll look at the guy raising with AA or KK as passive. it's all a matter of perspective. if an opponent views raising out of the blinds as something that you should only do with AA, then he's going to assume you have a very strong hand.

[Malcom Reynolds]

Is this something you've noticed upon immediately sitting down at the table, or after you have been at the table for a while?

If you have been there for a while, I'm sure they will have noticed you raising from many different positions, and I'm not sure why your big blind raises would get any different respect. If they are used to raising only AA and KK and see you raising all over the place, by that logic won't they think you are a maniac?

[sthief09]

it's something I've noticed for a while, but when I'm playing I like to make random posts to see what people say, so I decided to post it tonight. I figure maybe every once in a while it'll start a good discussion

[daveymck]

Having seen his PFR stats he isnt as much of a maniac as I thought, most people only raise form the blinds with AA-KK and AK, therefore they only think you do it with that. So you can get away with raises with other hands and get respect for it.

Also the reverse is probably true a raise from the blinds from and ABC player more likely means a monster hand so be aware of that.

[Trix]

Most people are tighter when raising from the blinds, than any other position.

[Bigdaddydvo]

How about "Thief must have a good hand to raise in the blinds if he wants to play this pot the whole way with terrible position."

I'm wary of raising from the blinds moreso than any other spot since, as was previously mentioned, no one folds for one extra bet (as opposed to making people cold call when you raise UTG, for example) So, its a 5 handed pot, I have TT in the BB, I'll swear up and down, close my eyes, and throw the raise in because it's the right thing to do. Not that I like doing it mind you...

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
So, its a 5 handed pot, I have TT in the BB, I'll swear up and down, close my eyes, and throw the raise in because it's the right thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well isn't this just because in a 5 way pot you are unlikely to win unimproved, so the smart thing to do is just trap everyone for one more bet for those times you flop a set?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I get more respect for my raises out of the blinds than from any other position, including UTG. coincidence?

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, since no one else asked, I'll bite.

How do you determine how much respect you are getting?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Well isn't this just because in a 5 way pot you are unlikely to win unimproved, so the smart thing to do is just trap everyone for one more bet for those times you flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you trap people from first position in an unraised pot?

One of the virtues of the preflop raise is it makes the pot big enough that people will call you down or chase you when you flop a set. They hope you have a one pair hand or overcards. Often they are drawing dead or nearly so.

[Malcom Reynolds]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you trap people from first position in an unraised pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

??? I thought the situation Bigdaddydvo said was raising TT from the BB. When raising, everyone who already limped will usually call one more bet. I've rarely seen those who already limped fold to one more bet, except for maybe a poster.

[alee]

I would think this is a rather obvious answer - raising from the blinds indicates a very strong hand because the raiser would otherwise be able to see a flop for cheap. I'm always wary of a blinds raise, particularly from the BB.

That doesn't mean that any of the limpers are going to fold, but it does advertise a strong hand.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you trap people from first position in an unraised pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

By making the pot bigger, making it easier for them to chase their second pair. When you flop a set, you want the one pair callers with you all the way, seeing as they are virtually drawing dead.

[BottlesOf]

Yea. Remember (in their minds) a raise in the blinds indicates a monster b/c no one who limped is going to fold for one more bet. You're not raising to get anyone out. Sounds like AA-QQ, why raise a hand like QJs, which needs to hit and then still might lose.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
why raise a hand like QJs, which needs to hit and then still might lose

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different reason to raise from the blinds. I would raise this sometimes for the same reasons I would raise 66 out of the BB. The times you flop a straight/flush draw, the pot is bigger, and people will not see your QJs coming. They will expect AA, so when you hit a flush, they will call with their 2 pair, not expecting the flush.

[sthief09]

objectivity. they seem to fold a lot when I bet. I have no more evidence. I posted because I was curious if anyone else noticed.

[sthief09]

read his post again. you misunderstood it

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why raise a hand like QJs, which needs to hit and then still might lose

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a different reason to raise from the blinds. I would raise this sometimes for the same reasons I would raise 66 out of the BB. The times you flop a straight/flush draw, the pot is bigger, and people will not see your QJs coming. They will expect AA, so when you hit a flush, they will call with their 2 pair, not expecting the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most low limit players will call with two pair even when they suspect a flush.

--Zetack

[Bob T.]

Two things.

1 - When you raise out of the blinds, everyone has already proclaimed their weakness by limping. So having a raising hand puts you ahead of them.

2 - A lot of players are very tight raisers from the blinds. When you raise from the blinds, and they project their standards on your play, they expect a big hand from you.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

??? I thought the situation Bigdaddydvo said was raising TT from the BB. When raising, everyone who already limped will usually call one more bet.

They will. If you happen to flop a set with your pair, you will have trapped them by making the pot big enough that they might make the mistake of chasing while drawing dead or nearly dead. On the other hand, if you flop top pair, then it is probably correct for them to chase, so you make it less likely that you will win with those hands, but when you do, at least the pot will be bigger.

Its all a tradeoff, and depends on where you want to live with these hands.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Malcom Reynolds]

This discussion reminds me of something I read a while back about checking AKo and AQo in the blinds in a 5 way pot. Does anyone have a link to the discussion or could summarize the conclusions?

I've had a lot of success with checking in the BB, when I hit my hand I get a lot of action as nobody sees it coming, whereas when I raise those hands from the blinds, if I miss it's expensive, and when I do hit, people fold really fast. Hmm. Maybe this is the respecting raises out of the blinds effect in practice...

[mistrpug]

I like to check from the BB with averageish hands like small pairs and smaller suited broadways. Even though a raise gets more money in when your pot equity is fairly high, I think you're set up better for a check-raise later in the hand if you do hit it. That can really make up for the money you miss putting in before the flop. If you miss, you lose one less bet as well.

I feel playing this way makes my hand more "flexible" post-flop, since if I raise preflop, I'll be expected to bet out and won't be able to make any other trickier plays.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have a link to the discussion or could summarize the conclusions?


[/ QUOTE ]

We really don't need to add to that thread. Basically, it's correct to raise with AKo from the BB the vast majority of the time (In low limit games, you should replace "the vast majority of the time" with "always".) In tougher games, there are probably instances where just calling with AKo is better, because it keeps the pot smaller, and can allow you outplay your opponents and/or make them make mistakes postflop.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to check from the BB with averageish hands like small pairs and smaller suited broadways. Even though a raise gets more money in when your pot equity is fairly high, I think you're set up better for a check-raise later in the hand if you do hit it. That can really make up for the money you miss putting in before the flop. If you miss, you lose one less bet as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising with smaller suited connectors and smaller pairs is not usually correct from the blinds. With these hands, your pot equity is usually below average. The reason you make money on these hands is implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]


I feel playing this way makes my hand more "flexible" post-flop, since if I raise preflop, I'll be expected to bet out and won't be able to make any other trickier plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are never obligated to bet the flop after raising preflop. In fact, many times if you check, your opponents will be even more wary that you have a monster (especially if a big card hit the board)

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
You are never obligated to bet the flop after raising preflop. In fact, many times if you check, your opponents will be even more wary that you have a monster (especially if a big card hit the board)

[/ QUOTE ]

That was kind of my point. I always feel like I can't go for the check-raise after raising from the blinds since I feel like people will be looking for it and are more likely to check behind me. Therefore if I raise preflop from the BB with say 77 and hit a set, I'm afraid to try a check-raise because I feel people aren't as likely to bet behind me as opposed to when I check from the BB.

[Bob T.]

I feel playing this way makes my hand more "flexible" post-flop, since if I raise preflop, I'll be expected to bet out and won't be able to make any other trickier plays.

One of my favorite tricky plays is threebetting when I do hit my hand /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

You are never obligated to bet the flop after raising preflop. In fact, many times if you check, your opponents will be even more wary that you have a monster (especially if a big card hit the board)

[/ QUOTE ]

my success rate for checkraising the flop after raising preflop from the blinds is probably around 90%. nobody ever takes a free card on the flop in the party low limit games, and checkraising is the best way to exploit that.

--turnipmonster