SThief09 would raise here...

[Fnord]

Table is a little LooPy in spots. No read on the SB, probably passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Fnord folds...

[sthief09]

I'm inclined to call down here, but I don't have a problem folding.

[joker122]

Really? I like raising best, folding least. Especially since he has the Jd.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I like raising best, folding least. Especially since he has the Jd.

[/ QUOTE ]

let's start over because I thought Hero was closing the action in a headsup pot.

with 2 people behind you in a big pot, it seems like an easy raise. I agree.

headsup I call down

[TBone]

I think the fold is horrible.

SB could be betting a draw instead of a Q. You also have the backdoor 3rd nut flush draw. I think I'd raise looking to possibly get a free turn and river card, (maybe folding K or A of diamonds) and maybe betting the turn.

T
T

[Alobar]

folding is way to weak tight here. raise

[Fnord]

There rest of the hand had me asking a lot of "what if"s

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="red">Fnord raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Fnord folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has 5h 6h (two pair, queens and sixes).
MP2 has Kd 4d (one pair, queens).
Button has 7h Kh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: SB wins 9.50 BB. </font>

[daveymck]

This is straight out of Lee Jones and I think demontrates the main differances between WLLH and SSH.

Here you make an apparently reasonable fold saving yourself 2-3 bb's WLLH would endorse this.

SSH would encourage you to raise here trying to clean your outs and get hopefully heads up with the bettor who hopefully is drawing to the flush. Here you lose your 2-3bb's at times but you then have the chance of winning a 10-12 bb pot.

I must be moving in the right direction as I said "What" when I saw you folding the Jacks.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
folding is way to weak tight here. raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? His opponents can't take advantage of this knowledge, even if he folded JJ face up. After all, the bettor still has to beat the other three players as well.

I'd probably raise, but I think it's close.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
Table is a little LooPy in spots. No read on the SB, probably passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Fnord folds...

[/ QUOTE ]


11 to 1 on a call, a pretty damn good chance you're ahead, and if not, you've got 2 outs to trips and a backdoor flush draw...

Call me crazy, but folding here seems absolutely horrible. Now, if you're three-bet, then you can consider check-folding the turn, or calling down.

If you're merely called, the concensus here seems to be to take the free card and cheap showdown...

Am I the only one who thinks the best line here is

Flop: Raise.

If you get 3bet and then he leads the turn, fold if the turn blanked, call if it's a diamond (an absent a read, folding unimproved on the river, or checking behind) and raise if you spike your set, obviously.

If you're called, and checked to, which is likely... bet the turn?

Granted, you're saving a BB on the turn the times you're up against some sort of Queen by taking the free card, but on a draw heavy board like that, but I'd rather give up one BB when I'm behind than give what I feel is probably just as likely a hand (some sort of draw) a free card to beat me on the river.

I might be called LAGGY for this one, but that's my opinion. At least most of us can agree the fold isn't the greatest option?

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Table is a little LooPy in spots. No read on the SB, probably passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Fnord raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Fnord folds...

[/ QUOTE ]


11 to 1 on a call, a pretty damn good chance you're ahead, and if not, you've got 2 outs to trips and a backdoor flush draw...

Call me crazy, but folding here seems absolutely horrible. Now, if you're three-bet, then you can consider check-folding the turn, or calling down.

If you're merely called, the concensus here seems to be to take the free card and cheap showdown...

Am I the only one who thinks the best line here is

Flop: Raise.

If you get 3bet and then he leads the turn, fold if the turn blanked, call if it's a diamond (an absent a read, folding unimproved on the river, or checking behind) and raise if you spike your set, obviously.

If you're called, and checked to, which is likely... bet the turn?

Granted, you're saving a BB on the turn the times you're up against some sort of Queen by taking the free card, but on a draw heavy board like that, but I'd rather give up one BB when I'm behind than give what I feel is probably just as likely a hand (some sort of draw) a free card to beat me on the river.

I might be called LAGGY for this one, but that's my opinion. At least most of us can agree the fold isn't the greatest option?

[/ QUOTE ]

And in an interesting twist, chances are you would've been 3bet, and then been bet into on the turn, and he just so happened to be on the only likely 3bet hand that you took control of on that turn card.

Funny how results can skew things, ain't it?

I'm still sticking to my line, but at least take solace in the fact that you folded while you were ahead, and would've had no idea that the turn Q was actually a good card for you ;P

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Pre-SSH I would have folded as you did. Six-weeks post SSH, I nearly jumped out of my chair when I read "fold." I raise this against a random opponent. If three-bet, I'd consider folding on the turn, but still likely call it down.

[spamuell]

I don't think folding is as horrible as a lot of you are making it out to be. If you are behind, it's going to be very difficult to catch up.

Why do you think folding is so terrible? What hands do you put the SB on when he bets here? I'm thinking Qx, some two pair combination, a slight possibility of a set, and possibly a flush draw or a straight draw. I don't think SB bets a bare 6 or 5 here most of the time and usually not something like 88. So when SB has you beat, you have 2 outs (or 5 outs if he has exactly 56). When you have him beat, he probably has 4, 8 or 9 outs.

And then there are the two players behind you, either of which could have a Q or be like 2:1 to make a better hand than you by the river.

This all sounds very weak-tight but it would be nice if someone could say why is folding the flop so awful here? I don't think it's a huge mistake really.

[daveymck]

I dont think its awful, I think though this is the sort of hand that really identifies the difference in the types of play available.

The reason for not folding is that he might still have the best hand, the flush draw might bet out here and as we have seen by the results (and other hands like it) some players at Party low limits will bet out with any part of the flop. That I guess is more the key here identyfying those that bet with anything to those who bet with top pair minimum.

[Fnord]

Some thoughts...

o The game had a very loose/passive texture. When the SB bet into me I was quite certain I was behind.
o I knew calling was worse than raising in this spot because the pot was big and a raise might knock out over-cards. So it then became of decision of if I wanted to invest a bunch of chips in this position.
o Cut the pot size in half and I think this is a clear fold. With the larger pot, folding is silly. The pot here is big per SSH, but not huge.
o With two LooPy players behind me and a flush draw on the board I didn't think there was a good chance of a raise getting me position in later betting rounds (which in this case would be heads-up.) With better position I would be more inclined to play this one out.
o With the Queen actually being an out for me (a possibily that hadn't even crossed my mind at the time), it would have been very interesting how it would have played out. I very easily could have folded the best hand on the Turn.

[IndieMatty]

Seems like im 2 days late. but BLECH! Raise, then bet, fold to a re-raise. Dude could have Ax /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or 78 or a 5! Don't fold!

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH would encourage you to raise here trying to clean your outs and get hopefully heads up with the bettor who hopefully is drawing to the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I would raise here too, what "outs" are you cleaning up exactly? I would raise here because I think I'm probably ahead. If I'm behind I have the 2 J outs, none of which really require any "cleaning up." I'm probably missing something here.

[daveymck]

I probably meant protect your hand. Clearing out the overcards etc.

[bdk3clash]

Fair enough. The only overcards hand that would be getting proper cards to call the flop raise is AK, which is pretty unlikely given the preflop action. Bare aces and bare kings are hosed if they call two bets on this flop.

[JinX11]

Seems like an either-or situation here. Half the time, I'm raising with the intention of going to showdown; the other half, I'm console myself that I saved a few bets.

In my mind, the question to be answered on his flop bet is 'do you intend to show it down'?

When SB calls your UTG PFR and promptly bets into you on the flop, most of time, he's got top pair/good kicker or better. Raising would have certainly gotten you three-bet in this situation and the turn card makes matters seem worse for you, as he appears to have trips and all of your backdoor draws are gone. The question remains 'do you intend to show it down'?

*Not* a "bad" fold. Here's a bad fold (from this AM):

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (6 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 6 BB, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.</font>

[InchoateHand]

I'm not sure I agree with you here.

[ QUOTE ]
When SB calls your UTG PFR and promptly bets into you on the flop, most of time, he's got top pair/good kicker or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of late I have seen a lot of funky action from the blinds on Party. When SB/BB bets into me as the PFR raiser, all it tells me is that he has ANY piece of the board, or a PP. For some reason many party opponents believe that PF raisers only somehow have AK, and thus I have been repeatedly bet into on boards where I have the nuts--top set with tens, jacks or queens.

Edited to add: I'm not saying folding HERE is wrong, but when I have seen my opponents do this to others, I almost always throw in a raise here.