the soft bigotry of low expectations

[adios]

Is the president right about this stating that this is what affirmative action amounts to more or less? I think he's dead on the money. In other countries the euphemism, affirmative action, is referred to positive discrimination. It certainly is a form of discrimination. More importantly I think it's tremendously demeaning in the way it's applied most of the time. There isn't a doubt in my mind that the gender groups and racial groups that "benefit" from affimative action are just as capable in the aggregate of achievement as those that affirmative action discriminates against.

[jdl22]

AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so.

[MMMMMM]

"AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so."


I think this was true long ago but has no longer much merit.

Specifically, if I am running a business I want the most capable people I can find and afford to be working for me because otherwise my competitors will get them.

In the old days, there was a lot less competition around in business, and businesses were more contrained by local conditions. The "old boys" network flourished in a somewhat closed environment without much competition in some industries. Now the key to success is to be competitive, competitive, competitive. There is not the same kind of room for making less than optimal hiring decisions as there used to be.

[Clarkmeister]

I think your view is terribly naive. It looks great on paper, but in reality it just doesn't hold water. Now that doesn't mean that AA is the ideal solution to the problem, but to think that there doesn't still exist a serious problem is IMO a big mistake.

[jokerswild]

Very naive, at best. If you think the color line no longer exists, then you live in never never land.
More to the point , what is "long ago". American apartheid wasn't even outlawed until 1964. That is very recent.

Considering how you hate Muslims, I think giving you the benefit of the doubt is wrong.

Here is a good example. Discrimination occured when c- students like Geoge W.Bush were accepted to Harvard Business School over much more qualified minority applicants because his family had political influence.

[jokerswild]

We do have low expectations of you. You have no moral compass. Frankly, you aren't very smaart.

[MMMMMM]

"Very naive, at best. If you think the color line no longer exists, then you live in never never land."

I don't think it no longer exists, I think it is by now pretty minimal.

"More to the point , what is "long ago". American apartheid wasn't even outlawed until 1964. That is very recent."

To me, 50 years is "long ago". I guess it isn't to you, though. 50 years is over two generations.

"Considering how you hate Muslims, I think giving you the benefit of the doubt is wrong."

I don't hate Muslims, I hate totalitarianism. To the degree that Islam fosters totalitarianism I think it needs reform.

Anyone who cannot see that there is a difference between hating, say, the totalitarianism of the Soviet system, or hating the Soviet people, just isn't very bright.

"Here is a good example. Discrimination occured when c- students like Geoge W.Bush were accepted to Harvard Business School over much more qualified minority applicants because his family had political influence."

There are countless examples of asything you care to look for.

[MMMMMM]

Well I don't think there is a serious discrimination problem now. I think there used to be a serious problem, but I think the problem is by now quite mild.

Many people argue that there must be still a serious discrimination problem because group results are not yet equal. But this is based on the presumption that group results necessarily would be equal if not for discrimination. Not questioning that presumption is a serious logical error.

Asians currently outperform white Americans scholastically, and earn more on average than whites as well, right here in America. Does that imply that whites are the victims of discrimination compared to Asians?

[nothumb]

I disagree. I think there are many flaws within the system because it's inherently difficult or impossible to legislate away what people think. The bottom line is that many people in this country remain uncomfortable with or hostile towards black people. The aim of affirmative action is, in spite of the unspoken color lines that still exist in force, to create a dynamic black middle class that will challenge these barriers. Much like the explosive growth of the middle class under capitalism supposedly creates demand for democracy, the hope is that this growing black middle class will break down existing color lines and create demand for education, democratic process and representation in the black community.

Again, that's just the general theory, I'm not pointing out what I see as flaws in the concept or implementation. However, I think there are many other forms of 'affirmative action' for the advantaged, and people don't get up in arms to prevent these. It is logically unsound to demand that people abolish affirmative action without assailing the many institutions and practices that have championed mediocrity and nepotism for far longer and to a far greater degree.

NT

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

MLK Jr. has often been quoted as saying he dreamt of a world where a person would be judged "not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character."

Affirmative action makes skin color a factor thus is racist in nature. To recognize this fact does not mean one ignores the fact that there is still racism in our society. It just says that using racism to combat racism is counterproductive.

I would like my grandson to grow up in a world where racism is a distant memory. Affirmative action will not help that cause.

[Sponger15SB]

Kurn that sounded like something I'd write at 3:30AM the night before a paper was due in my Soc. class.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Kurn that sounded like something I'd write at 3:30AM the night before a paper was due in my Soc. class

Good to hear that nothing has changed since I was in college. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

For instance take school admissions, are you stating that people who are academically qualified would not be admitted unless there was affirmative action? I think it's probably the other way around, people who are academically qualified are not being admitted when they should be because preference is given to those with less qualifications due to race and/or gender. This is what he's talking about when he refers to low expectations.

[adios]

but I expect a lot more out of you so you'll have to work much harder at being a good citizen and curbing your homophobia and thus you'll get no special treatment from me.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Good to hear that nothing has changed since I was in college

[/ QUOTE ]

College papers today are written computers and printers, not ink wells and fountain pens like back when you were in college.

Stu

[adios]

If an NFL owner prefers a retread white coach to an otherwise capable black coach that by all indications is eminently more qualified, wouldn't that NFL owner be shooting himself in the foot more or less? But that's outright bigotry. Affirmative action gives preference based on such things as race or gender to those who are otherwise less qualified and/or have acheived less than someone else that is white and/or male.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
AA programs are not there so that those who are not capable are given jobs. It exists because those who are capable are not given equal opportunity to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way it's structured it doesn't have that effect. What do they say about roads, hells, and good intentions?

I don't have an answer to the general problem of racism. It's like telling a retard to "be smart." It won't do anything but offend and alienate the tard in question. Maybe when people start being more logical, something that I don't see happening in the near future, they'll stop being racist.

Or at least they'll be like me. I'm an equal opportunity racist who hates things about my own as much as I hate anything about anyone else's. Since such a large majority of people are ignorant buffoons, it's a safe bet to assume that the "baseline" member of any race is also a donkey.

~D

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

College papers today are written computers and printers, not ink wells and fountain pens like back when you were in college.

You are correct of course. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I was referring to *when* they got written not changing.

[riverflush]

Here's my take....

In this modern, worldwide economy, companies that stick to the "old boys network" in hiring are at a distinct disadvantage over more efficient, lean, and progressive-thinking companies that hire the best people, regardless of race or gender. If you're serious about being a major player in business, you must hire the best and retain the best. In a world (and country) that caters to a huge diversity of ethnic backgrounds, it is vital to speak to your marketplace through people they can relate to...which means people of all colors and backgrounds. You need Spanish-speaking employees, for example, to serve a developing marketplace in the U.S. Those who have the skills - white, black, or otherwise, will win out in the long run. It's merely an indisputable fact of business. There exists businesses who discriminate in hiring (only want good looking women, or whatever) - but it will usually bite them in the ass over time. In my opinion, they are leaving money on the table.


Also - just to clear the air on Bush, etc. George W. Bush obtained an SAT score of 1206 (566 verbal, 640 math), which would be 1280 using today's scoring. John Kerry has NOT released his SAT scores (why?). For comparison's sake, Al Gore's SAT was 1355 (625 verbal, 730 math), which would be 1420 adjusted for today's scoring.

All those in the "Bush is a dumbass who shouldn't have gotten into Yale" camp, really need to compare their own SATs to Bush and then speak. 1206 is around 150 pts. below the Yale average for admission, but it's not like the guy is rockin' an 880 score.

[Victor]

In regards to college school admissions. Do you honestly believe that black dominated high school systems are equal to white suburban schools in terms of materials available, future preparations and overall atmosphere?

I do agree, however, that minority students are often accepted over academically qualified students at some of the more prestigous schools, but you must realize that it is a double-edged problem.

[Victor]

The NFL rule is simply that a franchise must interview a black candidate. They are not (at least publicly) coerced into hiring one or penalized for rejecting one. The just have to go through the motions.

[jokerswild]

What a girlie man response. Arnold would be ashamed of you.