Idea from SSH

[Evan]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button calls.
<font color="blue">This is why I'm posting this hand. Is this a good application of not rasing with big hands to induce overcalls or am I totally lsot on this one. This is a play I never would have made before reading SSH and I want to make sure I'm using it right.</font>

River: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, Button folds, SB calls.
<font color="blue">I should still raise the river, right? I would have to get both of the others to overcall to make it more profitable than raising, which SB will almost certainly call. </font>

Final Pot: 13 BB

<font color="blue">Basically I just want to make sure I'm going for overcalls in the right spots and applying these new ideas correctly. Thanks. </font>

[Garland]

From what I've read, I believe SSH encourages overcalls when the flop is non-threatening (e.g. set with no flush or straight draw present), but there is a flush draw present so keep that in mind.

That said, I'd probably play it the same as you. The only way you'd make more is if you simply called and both remaining players called.

Sucks to have to have a bettor to your right with the nuts, huh?

Garland

[House-Lion]

I'm aware of the concept, but people could still be on a draw here and many will call for a gut-shot to the straight. You do not want to split the pot with them without them having to pay for it.

I think you should charge the flush-draws two bets on the turn since they will call.

At this hand you are likely not up against a set but I think if you suspect you are then you need to raise as well to charge for the draw to the full house + you could still get plenty of action from a set.

[Hallett]

I don't like this at all.

You flop an open ended straight draw. You are 2.17-1 to hit your draw by the end of the hand. On the flop, you have a ton of callers...7 I think. I would either bet out, or more likely (based on your position) check raise as you have more callers than your odds require.

You hit your hand on the turn, and even though there are two diamonds out there, you wait until the river to raise. I don't think this is wise. If you show some aggression on the flop, you don't have all the callers on the turn, so you no longer have to think about how to appy a raise, using SSH. The hand looks after itself. You bet/ raise the turn, people have potential, so they call. You win more money.

[Evan]

I was hoping to check-raise the flop, but no one bet till the button and I didn't want to make half the field cold call 2, although maybe I should have. I also feel like I might have been bettter off riaseing the turn and hoping to pull the others along and get them committed to the pot. I wasn't sure what the best way to play this was, and I'm still not.

[xerostar]

I see a lot of confusion on the way to play this, and I don't know if what you did was necessarily bad. According to SSH, I think you induce overcalls if the players behind you are loose, I don't remember any specific place in the hand it mentions this, so I believe it applies for the flop, turn, and river. (meaning you didn't have to raise the river if you think you could've induced all of them to overcall, which may not have been the case here) There's no clear way to play this, the way to induce the maximum amount of bets is really dependent on your read on the players behind you, and whether they are loose or not.

[JTG51]

I haven't read SSH yet so I can't say for sure, but I doubt it recommends a call in this situation. With that board many of the hands that will call one bet will also call two cold (any two face cards and flush draws).

I suspect Ed recommended going for overcalls on the turn when your opponents are drawing nearly dead and are likely to call one bet but not two.

[Hallett]

If you missed the check raise, bet the turn, while everyone still has potential. You have the best hand, and dont want to give soemeone on a draw a free card. BET,

[JTG51]

I was hoping to check-raise the flop, but no one bet till the button and I didn't want to make half the field cold call 2, although maybe I should have.

It seems like everyone has forgotten that it's sometimes OK to check and call with a draw.

[daveymck]

I think I would like to raise the flop here, two callers and possibly one behind you, but you draw isnt strong ie a J or 10 probably isnt helping you, but a raise might push out anyone with a backdraw flush.

Once you hit on the turn you have to raise, you have made your hand lets protect it, yes its the nuts at the moment but it is threatened by redraws lets get them making a mistake not holding the door open, as well as the flush a J or 10 may make you split the pot.

The money will go in on the turn while people are still playing and the chances are on the river you will lead the betting but may get more callers.

If there was no flush on or you had a redraw to make a strong flush then play the way you did but not when your hand is strong but vunerable.

[JTG51]

If there was no flush on or you had a redraw to make a strong flush then play the way you did but not when your hand is strong but vunerable.

The reason you raise the turn has a lot more to do with the fact that worse hands will likely call two cold but may not call any on the river than with how vulnerable the hand is.

For example, if instead Hero had TT and the board was T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, raising the turn would still be correct. It's obviously not to protect the hand. It's to collect extra bets from the draws while they're still willing to pay. They aren't going to pay on the river when they miss.

[MicroBob]

okay...i have many thoughts on this one.
here comes another rambling post. as many of you have learned, brevity is not my forte.

first....you can bet out at the flop i think.
but i think the decision to hold off on the C/R after it makes it all the way around to the button is okay here.
with a K and Q on the board i think you are correct to expect some kind of action on this flop. it just didn't happen that way for you unfortunately.

for me, i like to make sure i get the value-bet in. since it wasn't raised PF i would probably just bet at it.
i HATE it when it gets checked around here....and it almost happened on this one.

plus, everytime i lead the betting there's always the chance of taking it there or setting up the possibility of taking it on the next street (yes...even with this many callers and a K and Q on the board i still think it's a possibility).


but i'm not sure my philosophy is correct on this one....the failed C/R attempt may be better here.


on the turn....go ahead and raise.
yes, you have a made hand....but on the board are an A, K and Q.


it's worth a shot anyway. if just one of the 2 players behind you cold-calls then it's an okay raise (not sure on this actually because it's just the turn. thoughts??)

as other posters allude to, anyone with a T or a J has a gutshot...anyone with an A will likely stay for 2-bets. and anyone with any 2 face-cards (QJ, KQ, AT, whatever) or 2 diamonds should be charged 2 bets for the privilege of staying in this pot.

think about it.....anyone with 2 face-cards here either has 2-pair OR a pair and a gutshot. you can raise here and hope that one of those guys has 2 face-cards and will call or possibly even re-raise with their 2-pair or A-anything.


i believe that SSHE states that you want to go out of your way (like you did here) to keep them in if you know they are drawing dead and know they won't call 2-cold.

i also recall it recommending trying this on the flop....and then waiting for the turn when the bet-size is double. but perhaps there is info about trying this on the turn as well.

anyway - here, the flush-draw and gut-shot possibilities all add up to mean your opponents are possibly drawing very live and might be willing to call 2-cold (imo).

if you raise the turn here....an opponent might put you on Ax and charge right back at you and that would be awfully pretty.

when you have a weird full-house (like 72 on board of 722) the chances of getting re-raised are slimmer.
in this hand, there is a possiblity that the A is a strong enough card for someone else that they will let you cap that baby.
that possibility (say 10% or 15% or whatever) of getting 3-bet right then and there adds value to you going for the turn-raise imo.


these opponents didn't appear to have the cards to do that based on how the hand later played out....
but considering the cards on the board and the button's bet on the flop (which is likely meaningless, but not necessarily) i think it's reasonable to assume the possibility.


this hand was a pretty good exercise for me.
i'm not sure i got all of my ideas correct on this one....but it's an interesting example and i think the ideas that it helped inspire in my head may very well help my game.

[JTG51]

i HATE it when it gets checked around here....and it almost happened on this one.

I'll just point out that it isn't exactly a disaster when you have no pair and no overcards in a multiway pot and the flop gets checked around. If you bet and get called by a couple of players, you're probably losing money.

And I've always wondered. What the heck is your avatar, Bob?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you raise the turn has a lot more to do with the fact that worse hands will likely call two cold but may not call any on the river than with how vulnerable the hand is.

[/ QUOTE ]


yes. this is true.
since they might still be alive on the turn their chances of calling 2-cold here are decent.
certainly much better than calling 1 on the turn and 1 on the river (or 2 on the river) after they miss whatever they were chasing.

[MicroBob]

your point on checking is valid.
as you can probably tell, i am usually thinking off the cuff and tossing out a variety of ideas to see which ones are good and which are sucky.


you haven't ALWAYS wondered about my avatar because i haven't had it for that long (a couple of months maybe).
because i like you i will tell you.

i didn't even know how to add an avatar...but breakevenplayer complained that as a frequent poster i should have ANYTHING up as an avatar because he was tired at just seeing my stupid x-in-the-box non-exsitent link.

i put up something that i was okay with....but i said i wasn't thrilled with it.
got a PM from someone else....they did the obvious for me: they did a google-search of 'microbob'.

the pic is from an online catalog for a product called a 'microbob' which is some sort of head-phone distribution thingee (can send audio out to 6 sets of headphones) generally intended for classroom use (like on computers i suspect).
it sells for 65 pounds plus shipping btw.

i think the pic is hilarious.
the girl is obviously intently listening to the microbob (smart girl).

[JTG51]

you haven't ALWAYS wondered about my avatar because i haven't had it for that long (a couple of months maybe).

OK, you got me. I've been wondering for a good couple of days.

because i like you i will tell you.

Thanks!

the pic is from an online catalog for a product called a 'microbob'...

That's interesting. I actually went to the site a few days ago trying to figure out why you chose that picture but didn't notice the microbob name. I guess I'm not a very good detective.

the girl is obviously intently listening to the microbob (smart girl).

Smart, and with a lot of free time on her hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MicroBob]

i thought it was better than this pic

http://www.inclusive.co.uk/images/mbob.jpg

[MicroBob]

found the page with the whole description. my memory of the pric was incorrect.
L35 for just the uni....
L89 for a microbob + 6 headphones


http://www.inclusive.co.uk/catalog/microbob.shtml

[Hallett]

Man, and all this time, I thought it was your kid.

[nepenthe]

Listen, you have to raise the turn here. Probably any gutshot straight draws, and certainly any flush draws, will pay you off here but won't when they miss on the river. You don't want something like a J or T to come on the river and force you to chop, so give those gutshots a chance to fold, or at least make them pay through their nose to see the river.

[Nottom]

Flop: You have a good but not amazing draw. An OEDS on a two-toned board with 2 undercards. I usually don't try and pump these types of draws, especially from out of position. I might bet, but I don't like a checkraise very much at all unless literally everyone was already in for 1 bet.

Turn: Well this is where the questions arise. You pretty much have to raise here. In fact you should pretty much always be raising with broadway, becasue the nature of the board means your opponents likely have a peice and will call. With a flush draw out there as well, this raise should be even more automatic. Like some of the others have said lots of people will call you now, but will not call the river if they miss.

River: oddly enough, this is a much better spot to consider overcalling. You no longer have the nuts, and it is is somewhat difficult for the players behind you to call a raise. Granted I think you still need to raise here, but this would be a better place to go for an overcall than the turn.

[Richard Berg]

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect Ed recommended going for overcalls on the turn when your opponents are drawing nearly dead and are likely to call one bet but not two.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think the most important recommendation is that they be [i]drawing to hands that look good but are second best[/url]. E.g., trips when you hold a set. In this case, lots of people will be drawing to something that ties you, and some might even be drawing to a live win.

Flop: debateable, check-call quite ok.
Turn: raise. You're vulnerable to a split pot, and the chance you'll get 3-bet is just as high as the chance you'd get 1-bet overcalls that would fold for 2.
River: calling and raising look about equal. In addition to overcalls, if you smooth call some people might raise AJ since they now beat lower 2-pairs.