3 Bet on the end?

[Kevin]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

1.) When CO coldcall/caps, do I put him on the nut flush? Therefore, is it an auto 3 bet on 5th when he raises?
2.) Did I misplay the flop? If so, what would be the proper play?

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 23.16 BB, between Hero and CO.

[RicktheRuler]

Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat. But i understand there is a lot of money in the pot and you are already in for one bet, so why not toss another one in there right?
I dont know about the three bet on the flop...you may already have been beaten and I dont think anyone is going anywhere with the community as it is--simply too many possiblities. I would check call the turn even though i wouldnt wasnt to and play the river as you did. I think you got lucky on this one.

[Brian]

Hi Kevin,

Cap the Flop the first time when it's on the way back to you. Even if you are against a made Flush, the cap is for value with 3 opponents total.

I would also 3-bet the River. Your typical Party opponent is oblivious that the board pairing may have destoyed his Flush. QQ would've normally been raised pre-Flop, so the only hand I can see beating you here is 88. If he's got 88, then thems the breaks, but I'll 3-bet it every time.

-Brian
-Brian

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat. But i understand there is a lot of money in the pot and you are already in for one bet, so why not toss another one in there right?

[/ QUOTE ]

To even begin to consider folding preflop (especially after the raise) is extremely weak thinking. You aren't calling here expecting to win with a pair of 3s, you are calling with the hopes of flopping a 3 and winning with a set or a boat.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Are you suggesting he fold pre-Flop? Get drawn out on? Our Hero will win the vast majority of the time that he makes a set.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about the three bet on the flop...you may already have been beaten and I dont think anyone is going anywhere with the community as it is--simply too many possiblities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero didn't 3-bet the Flop. He raised and then called a 3-bet back to him.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you got lucky on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky how? Hero flopped a strong hand, and hit his 10-outer on the River.

-Brian

[W. Deranged]

I really can't find a fault with your play here. It seems the most likely holding for CO here is A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif (maybe A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif). I think that the cold-call/cap play would be pretty strange here with QQ, and I don't really expect him to be raising pre-flop from that position behind a couple of callers with 88 (and, again, waiting to cap with set 8s would be somewhat strange). With that said, he could be trying to play top set kind of slow into the suited board, but that seems not only a very bad but also a very weird play. So, I think 90% the time the flop-betting points to him having the nut-flush.

The bet on the turn further suggests that he is playing the nut-flush, as it would be at least a questionable play if he had QQ considering that he is likely to be check-raised by a big heart and at that point he no longer has any worries about giving free cards (the only logical draw has hit).

With that said, I think the river three-bet is necessary. If you are lucky, as you indeed were, he four-bets with what is very likely the nut flush. If he turns over QQ, knock on the proverbial felt twice and tip your hat to CO, whose flop coldcall/cap was a bad enough play to disguise his hand quite successfully.

So I play it exactly as you did.

[RicktheRuler]

Right, I figured some people would disagree. And I am by no means an expert so your advice is appreciated. But my thinking is that against so many callers you are prone to being drawn out, which I think he may have been if it wasnt for the river. I would sometimes call the raise and then fold if overcards hit (situational) and there is a bet to me. Would you make this preflop play everytime? It seems to me this would be a losing proposition.

I appreciate your response.

[Nottom]

I would usually go ahead and cap the flop, even if someone has the flush I'm likely getting value on the bet with my set. I'm not sure what to think of the CO's cap, it could mean nut flush, it could mean top set. I think he has a suited A here more often than QQ though since I would expect this line more often from the nuts (He could even just have AA with a /images/graemlins/heart.gif but I would expect a 3-bet from that hand more often than not).

On the river, I think you have value in the 3-bet, but I don't really like it when it gets capped.

[RicktheRuler]

I gotcha, I am still learning and trying to contribute as I do so. I would appreciate it if you could keep the abrasiveness to a minimum--its one of the reasons this forum seems to be going down the shitter.

Have a nice day.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you make this preflop play everytime? It seems to me this would be a losing proposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only questionable part is the original call. With 2 limpers you are usually in pretty good shape, but there are times I would fold. Once I have a bet in, there is no way I fold for one more bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I would sometimes call the raise and then fold if overcards hit (situational) and there is a bet to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to be checkfolding the flop most of the time. The expectation is that when you flop a set (which will happen about one time in 8), you will make up for all the times you missed.

[W. Deranged]

With the 33, our hero is looking to hit a set and fold probably 90% if there is a bet into him. (Obviously overcards ARE going to hit). It was unfortunate he was raised preflop, but, once it gets back around to him, there is so much dead money in the pot that he is easily getting the necessary odds (plus HUGE implied odds, likely from the raiser holding big cards or a bigger pair) to call another bet.

In low limit hold 'em, sets can really be king. I played at Foxwoods last night and didn't win a pot for my first hour. Then I played pocket sixes, flopped a set, the pot put me up 8 big bets or so, and I was never down again for the rest of the night... To fold small pocket pairs in middle position or even early position at a very loose/passive table when you can expect about 6 players to see the flop(like every 2/4 or 3/6 table at F'woods or the Stone, where I play) is a little too weak.

[arkady]

Brian and his responses is not why the the forum is going down the shitter, the influx of "Ed, i love you and want to have your baby" posts is the culprit. Sometimes being harsh is an effective way to get a point across and there is much to be learned if you can put your sensitivity away. No one is throwing around personal insults here, but it is easy to get some of the more seasoned posters into a frenzy if something 'silly' is stated. Once again, it serves a better educational purpose, if you realize that your advice was incorrect, everyone benefits.

P.S. Your initial reply was riddled with errors, no reason to get offended.

[Kevin]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers

[/ QUOTE ]

If I read my preflop section in small stakes holdem correctly, this is exactly the field that I want to play a small pair with. EP limpers scream of a multi-way big pot that I can get my 7.5-1 + implied odds on. I don't like to play small pairs opening up late because, unless I flop a set heads up or 3 handed (and lord knows I don't have the odds for it) every card on the board can potentially beat me. I was only playing the 3s for set value. It is very easy to get away from on the flop if it doesn't hit. I might have misunderstood that portion of the book - but I am not understanding why you don't want to play 33 against a number of callers - I guess the only question is (in my mind) - was it too early? In the past, I might have dumped unless on in the cutoff or button, but Ed's book picks them up middle position.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about the three bet on the flop...you may already have been beaten and I dont think anyone is going anywhere with the community as it is--simply too many possiblities.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have the option of 3 betting. I raised, it was coldcalled, 3 bet by the opening bettor called by me and capped by the original preflop raiser. Just like I have 9 outs for a flush draw and would raise a multi-way big pot like that for value, If I wasn't already ahead. (no chance, in my mind after the 3 bet).

4th street confirmed that if I wasn't behind before, i was behind now, check call was obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
I would check call the turn even though i wouldnt wasnt to and play the river as you did. I think you got lucky on this one.


[/ QUOTE ]

It was a 10 out draw. I wouldn't fold an a 9 out flush draw in a pot like this for one bet, nor would I have any desire to. Yes, I got lucky on the end, just like I do the 1 out of 4 times that I catch a flush card. The pot overlay was huge. The only thing that was a concern was QQ - but it wouldn't be a coldcall cap (in my opinion) from the preflop raiser, unless he was playing bigger full house draw and raising for value.. Hell, I call on the end for the size of the pot unimproved, expecting to be shown at least one heart, but knowing that I only need to be good about 5-7% of the time for the call to be profitable.

Maybe I need to start back on page 1 of Ed's book and give it another try but I am thoroughly confused now.

Kevin

[RicktheRuler]

I cant argue with that. I just dont take well to being talked down to--maybe that should be adjusted for learning poker strategy, but I see a significant amount of mistreatment, so maybe I was too touchy.

Have a nice day.

[RicktheRuler]

No, I am a retard. Just a leak in my game I have thought about it with the help of the older posters and was totally wrong in my understanding of the preflop and postflop play. Apologies, Im learning too.

Have a nice day.

[Brian]

Rick,

I'm sorry if you found my posts to be an attack or abrasive. I was just quoting what you said and posting my responses to it.

You seem to have some misconceptions about small pocket pairs. They're basically trash unless you Flop a set, of which the odds of making are 7.5:1. While you are only getting 3.5:1 on your pre-Flop call (2 limpers, 1 big blind, 1 small blind = 3.5 small bets, to your 1 small bet), since sets are so hard for your opponents to detect and win so often when you hit them (about 80% of the time), you can be pretty loose when playing them pre-Flop. But be very tight with them post-Flop; i.e., flop a set or fold. Pretty much 99% of the time.

In the right games (and most games 3/6 and below are right), you should be limping with 22 UTG. You'll usually have enough people willing to pay you off drawing near dead with top/middle/bottom pair that they are profitable from any position.

Welcome to the forums,

-Brian

[W. Deranged]

Don't be confused... I think your reasoning is dead-on here.

[Kevin]

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 3c 3d (full house, threes full of nines).
CO shows Ah 5h (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 23.16 BB. </font>