Pocket Ts versus a 2+2er (2/4)

[RED_RAIN]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Notes on opponent
(128) Tight
SF: 21% / VP$IP: 17% / PFR: 7%
SD: 22% / W$SD: 50% / $Won: $36.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 <font color="purple">(Tight 2+2er)</font> calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

I put on worst if unpaired, KQs. If he has Qs-As I would think 3 bet. He knows I'm a 2+2er and has played with me a before and knows that.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Tight 2+2er raises</font>, Hero calls.

Here I can't tell if I should 3 bet or just call down. I think I'm behind only KQ or JJ. I think he might do this with 9s. I don't think he would have preflop called with 8s. So not really sure. I thought the max time allowed. Just called down, probably not the best.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Tight 2+2er bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Tight 2+2er checks.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 6.75 BB, between Hero and Tight 2+2er.</font>

What does he have? Who won?

[bakku]

His pf play is atrocious

[balkii]

3-bet the flop, it looks like he has a mid pair(88/99). Maybe he has KQs but he wont be able to raise you again with that so just keep firing.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Worse than raising 42o UTG? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JDErickson]

Hmmm. I'm think maybe KQs or this type of hand. He decided to call rather than 3 bet it. On the river he was scared of the A and your PFR so checked.

I think you lost to a K

[sthief09]

ewww he cold-called second in with KQs. tell him to raise more preflop too (not this hand, but in general). he also should've bet the river. you would've 3-bet the flop with AK or AA and probably would've mucked AQ/AJ/AT at some point. I'd be putting you on QQ, JJ, TT, or 99 if I were him. If he has 99 or 88 he should've mucked preflop and again on the flop.

Also, I think he should've called down here rather than raising the flop. raising here will only get him in trouble if he's behidn, and give you a reason to fold your underpair.

FWIW I probably would've mucked the flop with TT here, so I think you both misplayed your hands.

this hand was played very transparently from both sides. you could've left out both of your hands and I would've guessed you had JJ or TT (QQ less likely because he probably has KQs) and he had KQs.


sorry that's just a mass of words. I edited it like 5 times because I kept thinking of more stuff to say.

who's the 2+2er?

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
he also should've bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[Tosh]

Seeing as you got to the river, you should bet it. I don't know who your opponent is but I don't care much for his play here.

[RED_RAIN]

I PM'ed him and we'll see if he wants it to be known

[RED_RAIN]

Is your reasoning cause I'm ahead of a lot of hands or could get those that can catch me to fold on turn?

But what hands? 9s maybe, not 8s with his stats. Overs, maybe.

[BolliTrader]

Re: Pocket Ts versus a 2+2er (2/4)

Red thanks for the game and the post...
First I really (honestly) do appreciate being critised here. It makes me a better player (although I think all the flaming makes baby jesus cry a little). Now to attempt to defend my play.

Pre flop...
This table had been a little tight, but seemed to be loosening up some. I felt like this had to the potential to be a big pot. I hate cold calling (40 times in over 10000 hands since the purchase of PT), but there were some factors that lead to my decision to do it in this scenerio.
1. My cards. I had Pocket Jacks. I was pretty sure that I had better than a 50 - 50 chance of being better than Red_Rain. My thought on his standard of raising from this early position would be about the same as mine (AA - TT and AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, maybe KQs ~ Sthief, what else should i be raising early?).
2. I felt I would knock out all the others players if I re-raised (as it turned out it didn't matter). I didn't want to play head up against a 2+2er when there are others money to be made by all. Onto the flop...

It's sport now. No others in the hand. I looked at the K and thought to myself "self, I wonder if he has a king or two, so I raised". If he 3 bets I'm not sure if I call him down or not. Just when my head was about to explode from this thought he just called.

Turn I felt I had the best hand since he had only called.

River I felt he would only call if had me beat.

That's what I thinking at the time right or wrong...

Thanks again everyone.

Derek aka BlindChippy

Also ~ Sthief~ I raise 8.15% is that still to little raising?

[MoreWineII]

I'm afraid I don't understand your preflop reasoning. Can you explain why you didn't want other players to fold a bit more clearly?

I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.

[BolliTrader]

Situationally, I felt like a few of the other players would call 2 cold with hands that were worse than JJ. I didn't think some of the same players would call 3 cold w/ worse than JJ. Either way, better than JJ wasn't going away. I also felt I could ouplay most of the other players after the flop.

[sthief09]

not 3-betting JJ here is bad. I think cold-calling with JJ is better than cold-calling with KQs though. I like how you played it postflop . A river bet here is very thin, considering I'd be putting him on QQ, JJ, or TT. it's about even odds of you winning or losing, and there's a small chance he's trying to check-raise KK or for some reason called down with AJ or AQ. I assumed you had KQs and a lot of my comments and flaming refer to the fact that I "knew" you had KQs.

the reason I said something about preflop raising is because 17 and 7 (what he had on you) seems either too loose or too passive. a rockish TAG will be around 12/8, and a more active, aggressive TAG will be around 18/11 (personally I'm 20/12 which is on the LAG side), so it appeared that you just limped with some extra hands. I think most of the hands in addition to the basic 12/8 should be raised with. if your PFR is 8 and change, that's probably good if your VP$IP is in the 16-18 range. in the future, you can add some more hands to raise with, but you're still probably playing well preflop.

but disregard most or all of what I wrote in my first post. I really didn't think you'd have JJ. I think it's literally the only hand that you could've played well (in my opinion) given your line of play postflop.

but in the future pop it preflop.

nice hand

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. There is nothing more frustrating than opponents who put a lot of money into the pot preflop when I have the best hand.

[sthief09]

I'd take one opponent in a 7 SB pot over 4 opponents in an 11 SB pot any day.


if I HAD to call and I got to choose between 0 callers or 4, I'd choose 4. but if I had to choose between 2 people for a 3-bet, or 5 people for 2 bets, I'd take the 3-bet.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. There is nothing more frustrating than opponents who put a lot of money into the pot preflop when I have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd take one opponent in a 7 SB pot over 4 opponents in an 11 SB pot any day.


if I HAD to call and I got to choose between 0 callers or 4, I'd choose 4. but if I had to choose between 2 people for a 3-bet, or 5 people for 2 bets, I'd take the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sthief09]

ok, now I'm confused

[Richard Berg]

Money good, opponents bad (until you get enough implied odds for set value).

[Richard Berg]

I think checking through the river with JJ is ok. The original Hero is looking like QQ-88, AK-AQ, AKs-A9s (hearts + overcard + fear of raise make check-calling the turn with these plausible), KJs (offsuit kings would have to have enough high card value that they'd 3-bet the flop). Against someone who knows his opponent has had "bet the river for value" beaten into his head, you have to consider a checkraise very possible given the action and board.

3-bet preflop, though.

[sthief09]

I wrote that when I "knew" he had KQs

in a later post I wrote that I agree with checking through with JJ.

[Trix]

If I was 2+2er then I would 3bet you with AQ/99 or better.

If he isn´t too tricky then you can fold the flop. He almost allways have KQs or AJs. Maybe AQs if he is passive.

I dont like the coldcalling solid players first in thing. Apperently it´s in Ed´s book, but I doubt that the table conditions for it are there very often online.

[sthief09]

why 3-bet a TAG with AQ or 99? even if he might be raising a bit looser, you're still playing against a TAG.

[MoreWineII]

I'm not really playing JJ for set value. It's too strong a hand for that. But it's not really strong enough that I want to play it against 5 players.

Isn't rule #1 to protect your hand? With JJ, I'm thinking about protecting my hand as soon as possible. Therefore, I don't mind people mucking PF when I hold this hand. I think anything I lose in value, I'm making up for by increasing my chances to win the pot.

Is that way off?

[sthief09]

with JJ you want as much money in the pot as possible with as few people. In general, less people for 3 bets is better than more people for 2 bets. I don't think it has to do with protecting your hand. I think it has more to do with finding a better pot size-to-number of opponents ratio.

as I said before, I'd take a headsup pot 3-bet for 7 SB to a 5 way pot single-raised for 11 SB

[Richard Berg]

My one-liner was a paraphrase of an oft-quoted section from HFAP. JJ is a hand S&amp;M hate playing against exactly 3-4 opponents. You either want it shorthanded, playing for high pair value, or very multiway, getting mega implied odds to improve.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd take one opponent in a 7 SB pot over 4 opponents in an 11 SB pot any day.

if I HAD to call and I got to choose between 0 callers or 4, I'd choose 4. but if I had to choose between 2 people for a 3-bet, or 5 people for 2 bets, I'd take the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know what all that is about, I guess you misunderstood my point. My point was simply that when you have the best hand preflop, you'd rather have opponents call for two bets with their junk hands rather than fold their junk hands.