Does it make sense to move down if you're not losing?

[dfscott]

After about 3 weeks and 1500 hands at 1/2, I'm still not making any headway. I haven't lost a lot, but I haven't made any either. At this point, I'm not sure how to proceed. My BR is fine, but I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with this approach.

Does it make sense to drop back to .5/1 and play that for a while to build my confidence? Or should I assume that I really am learning something at 1/2 and just keep banging my head against the wall until something sinks in as long as I'm not losing money? Or is there something else I should be doing?

Can some of you people with 1/2 experience help me out?

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm talking about Party 1/2, not Pacific. Pacific 1/2 is the reason that my BR hasn't been damaged by Party 1/2 /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[cold_cash]

Whenever I move up a limit I always play a little bit of both.

Right now I play mostly 1/2 with more and more 2/4 mixed in. If I don't feel like I'm really on top of things I'll play the lower limit; when I do feel like it, I play the higher one.

I did the same thing when I went from .50/1 to 1/2, although I still play both on occasion, the .50/1 just kind of got gradually phased out.

I say if you're uncomfy at your higher limit for whatever reason, play the lower one. If you feel uneasy it's probably from a number of different things, but I'm guessing as you play more hands it'll go away, and you'll start doing the same thing all over again when you make your next jump. (If you want to make another jump, that is.)

Speaking for myself, it takes awhile to get used to the monetary differences while moving between levels. I know you're supposed to think in terms of "bets" instead of "dollars", but at first it's a little difficult to do that. The more you play the easier it gets, though.

[zerosports]

I'm in the same situation as you. Just completed 300bb for 1/2 (around 15k hands). 1/2 seems like a different world, and its tough to swallow going down 15bb on a 1/2 table when going down 15bb at .5/1 didnt phaze me. HH for PP are also screwed up right now so I can't even reliably track my progress /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[kenewbie]

I would have to vote for keep banging. They play better and thus you get better. That is if you goal is to play higher limits, if it is not then there is no point ofcourse.

k

[Brian]

You've only got 1500 hands. I know you've heard it before, but that is an incredibly tiny sample size. I wouldn't be surprised if the best player in the world were behind 100 dollars with 1500 hands, or if the worst player in the world were ahead 100 bucks after 1500 hands. And I don't mean that as an exaggeration. Literally anything short of GuyOnTilt growing a decent-sized pecker wouldn't surprise me during the course of 1500 hands.

-Brian

[Webster]

Play where you feel comfortable and make strikes higher when you fel like it. If you feel you can play higher go for it. 1/2 is basically the same players as .5/1 Perhaps 1 more good player at a tables.

You played very few hands to really tell but if you have nore lost your bank in .5/1 you are good enough for 1/2 OR 2/4 even.

Just have fun and play where you want to. IF you keep looking at the bank for profit you'll get all stressed out - it's not a job!!!!!

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
HH for PP are also screwed up right now so I can't even reliably track my progress /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They are? I thought it was just me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, I went looking for some of my trouble hands and noticed that they never made it to PT. However, it seemed like I had some of them, so I couldn't figure out what was going on.

[dfscott]

Thanks, all for the tips.

I've noticed that I'm not getting many hands to play (my VP$IP is around 16% instead of my normal 20%-ish), so I'm tending to push too hard when I do get a hand, particularly since I'm not multi-tabling as much as I usually do, so it's more tempting to try and make something out of nothing.

I think I'm trying to rush things too much. I'm going to try either mixing in single a 1/2 with the .5/1 games, or maybe go back to my original plan of just playing the 1/2 games on the weekend when they're softer until I start feeling better about my play.

[scotnt73]

i agree with taking shots. when i get ready for a higher limit i start playing 1 or 2 sessions there a week and the rest at my comfort limit. i do this until i stop thinking about the new limit feeling like a lot of money.

[papawawa]

I was wondering what your thoughts were regarding Pacific .25/50 vs the limits you play at now. I'm considering switching as the 25 cent limit is very frustrating. I find myself titling due to slow single-table games. Also the players at the 25 cent level seem to either suck out or not give any action. I know you don't know anything about my skill or playing style, but do you think any of the reasons/excuses I just gave are valid enough to warrant switching levels/sites, or should I just concentrate on beating these games consistantly? I was thinking of moving my BR to Party to take advantage of the 50% bonus and the aggressiveness of the players, but that would mean playing at double the limit I'm used to.

[mrjim]

You'll need a bigger BR for Party both because of higher stakes and because of a larger variance in the game. I would say stay at Pacific until you can beat that game because the Party game isn't any easier to beat. In my personal opinion it's harder than the Pacific games.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wondering what your thoughts were regarding Pacific .25/50 vs the limits you play at now. I'm considering switching as the 25 cent limit is very frustrating. I find myself titling due to slow single-table games. Also the players at the 25 cent level seem to either suck out or not give any action. I know you don't know anything about my skill or playing style, but do you think any of the reasons/excuses I just gave are valid enough to warrant switching levels/sites, or should I just concentrate on beating these games consistantly? I was thinking of moving my BR to Party to take advantage of the 50% bonus and the aggressiveness of the players, but that would mean playing at double the limit I'm used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can relate to the slow games. I originally started at PS .05/.10 and ended up 3-4 tabling. It kept me from losing focus and also made it easier to throw away hands because I knew another one was coming soon.

As another poster said, it boils down to BR, particularly in a loose game. The looser the game, the bigger the short-term variance. I also agree that Pacific games are easier than Party. I've never played the .25/.50 on Pacific, but the .5/1 and the 1/2 are both easier than the Party .5/1, IMO.

What does your BR look like? If you have the money (and the ability) to multi-table, I'd suggest putting $50 in PS and play a .05/.10 table while you're playing your Pacific table. It's about as loose as the higher Pacific games, and that way you could avoid getting bored at your Pacific table.

[papawawa]

I started playing with $65 at the 25cent limit, and quickly built my BR to a little over $100. Currently I am on a huge downswing to a about $50. It seems the more I build my game the more vulnerable I become to fish. Anyway I am still optimistic; however my BR limitations are significant. Basically I must stick to the $50 I have now, that's it. What do you suggest?

[DMBFan23]

play .25/.5 at your own risk. I'm sure you can beat it, but variance is a beeyotch and your bankroll is small.

[lu_hawk]

If you beat .5/1 and you have 900 posts here then there is no doubt at all that you can beat 1/2. They are a little tighter and they play a little better post flop but it is still a loose passive game full of pretty bad players. Probably it's the doubling of the stakes that's making you uncomfortable so just slowly mix in more and more 1/2 with .5/1 and you'll get more comfortable with it.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing with $65 at the 25cent limit, and quickly built my BR to a little over $100. Currently I am on a huge downswing to a about $50. It seems the more I build my game the more vulnerable I become to fish. Anyway I am still optimistic; however my BR limitations are significant. Basically I must stick to the $50 I have now, that's it. What do you suggest?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all caveated with YMMV! You asked for my opinion, so that's all this is -- my opinion, based on my personal experience.

That said, I think most posters would agree that $50 is not enough of a BR for .25/.50. If you take a 50BB drop (not uncommon at all in a loose game), you're going to be worried about running out of money, and start playing scared. Even if you don't, it's not that hard to hit a 100BB slide that will bankrupt you.

I would go one of two routes, and I can't really tell you which since I don't know that much about your play:

1) If you think that only being able to play 1 table is effecting your play (due to lost concentration, etc.) and you also feel that you can handle multiple tables at a time (go play some play money games and find out), I would seriously suggest moving that money to a place that supports multi-tabling and drop down in limits to .10/.20. The smaller stakes will lower your variance, but the ability to multi-table will enable you to build your BR at a reasonable rate. Make sure it also supports hand histories so you can study your play and learn from it.

2) Move down to .10/.20 at Pacific and slog your way back up to $100 before moving back. It'll be a long row to hoe, but the softer games at Pacific should keep it from being too bad.

Whatever you do, in the words of Dick Van Patten, I think you're headed for whitewater playing .25/.50 with only $50. You might survive, but you might not.

Frankly, I'd consider moving even if you don't multi-table. It is boring throwing away 80% of your hands -- before I multi-tabled, I used the time between hands to take notes on players. Pacific won't even let you do that. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[mrjim]

I'd suggest Paradise if you go this route. Min deposit is $20 and they have a good .10/.20 game. Disadvantage is no games between .10/.20 and .5/1.

And no, I'm not an affiliate and don't work for Paradise, just trying to help a guy out.

[cartoonsoldier]

Pacific is good...I love it and I hate it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The games are the best around, but the software is one of the worst around. So slow and ugly. I started with 25$ and have built it upto 88$ right now, but slowly I am finsing playing their tournaments much more intresting.

I play .25/.50 or .10/.20 depending on where I find a good game.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise is good...I love it and I hate it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The games are the best around, but the software is one of the worst around. So slow and ugly. I started with 25$ and have built it upto 88$ right now, but slowly I am finsing playing their tournaments much more intresting.

I play .25/.50 or .10/.20 depending on where I find a good game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. i think the software is good. the games are not uunbeatable but definitely not what i would call the best around.

[cartoonsoldier]

Sorry, I meant Pacific /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ZootMurph]

I basically skipped Party 1/2 and went to 2/4. Obviously, it took some time to get my bankroll to a decent level at .5/1.

I actually played about 5k hands at 1/2 and found I didn't like it. Seemed like a Rock Garden to me, and it was hard to make any headway. Doing great at 2/4, though. It's not as loose as .5/1, and more aggressive, but still very soft. If you have the bankroll, you should jump up and give it a try.

All this is Party/Empire.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I basically skipped Party 1/2 and went to 2/4. Obviously, it took some time to get my bankroll to a decent level at .5/1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about doing this and have heard of people doing this before, but I've also heard from some of the vets around here that it's hard when you hit 3/6 if you don't master 1/2 first.

Has anyone else heard anything like this?

[papawawa]

Does Paradise support multi-tabling? Does bisonbison's hand converter support Paradise? If so, I'm there.

[mrjim]

Yes and Yes.

[tiltaholic]

Hi-
I am in the same boat as you, sort of.
I have recently decided to take a crack at 1/2.
I haven't really had a winning session yet, but down only about 25BB or so. It's only been about 400 hands so I'm thinking it could easily be short term variance - I just feel like I'm working out of a hole from the beginning. I think if my first session had been a winner I wouldn't have doubts...but if I hit -50BB I'm going to go back to .5/1 before I try again.

I know that the dollar amounts are hard to get used to. I keep trying to force myself to think in bets, but so far it is still affecting my play a little. As in, when I lose a big pot because someone (correctly, even) drew to a gutshot against my set it seems worse because it was $60!

My problem could be related to trying to 2-table on an old laptop (the tables overlap - 1 .5/1, 1 1/2). So I end up not really paying attention to either table. In my experience, this is ok at .5/1 but I think I need to pay more attention at 1/2 and will swith to playing 1 table at a time (and try to avoid the urge to overplay my hands).

Hopefully things will turn around for the both of us!
Please update this thread as you progress - I would like to share experiences... I have also been thinking of starting up a thread devoted to hands that have confused me because the opponents played differently than I would expect at .5/1
-t

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Play where you feel comfortable and make strikes higher when you fel like it. If you feel you can play higher go for it. 1/2 is basically the same players as .5/1 Perhaps 1 more good player at a tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

1/2 on party reminds me alot of UB, when the table see flop average is lower than mine I feel like I am in a japanese rock garden. I'm smack bang on 20% vp$ip, and see flop all hands of 29%.

It's the end of the line for alot of weak tight players I think. They break exactly even on 1/2 but were marginal winners on 0.5/1. Then they fell prey to the myth that you make more money against better players. 2/4 is just too wild for them, and so is 0.5/1. And rocks like other rocks. Other rocks play 'good poker' and can make 'great laydowns'.

I'm bored out of my skull playing poker where stealing blinds and stealing pots on the flop is my main source of income.

[lu_hawk]

I don't know about needing to master 1/2 to play 3/6 but I think you should play 1/2 6 max before moving up to the higher limits. You learn alot of things shorthanded that will greatly improve your game.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi-
I am in the same boat as you, sort of.
I have recently decided to take a crack at 1/2.
I haven't really had a winning session yet, but down only about 25BB or so. It's only been about 400 hands so I'm thinking it could easily be short term variance - I just feel like I'm working out of a hole from the beginning. I think if my first session had been a winner I wouldn't have doubts...but if I hit -50BB I'm going to go back to .5/1 before I try again.

I know that the dollar amounts are hard to get used to. I keep trying to force myself to think in bets, but so far it is still affecting my play a little. As in, when I lose a big pot because someone (correctly, even) drew to a gutshot against my set it seems worse because it was $60!

My problem could be related to trying to 2-table on an old laptop (the tables overlap - 1 .5/1, 1 1/2). So I end up not really paying attention to either table. In my experience, this is ok at .5/1 but I think I need to pay more attention at 1/2 and will swith to playing 1 table at a time (and try to avoid the urge to overplay my hands).

Hopefully things will turn around for the both of us!
Please update this thread as you progress - I would like to share experiences... I have also been thinking of starting up a thread devoted to hands that have confused me because the opponents played differently than I would expect at .5/1
-t

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow -- that does sound like a carbon copy of my experience, almost. I'm down about 22BB myself. I'm a little different in that my first session was a winning one (+16BB), but it's been all down or breakeven from there. (Actually the winning session doesn't help my confidence much -- I feel like it might've been a fluke). The $$ values aren't bothering me too much, I don't think. I had a hard time adjusting to the move from .05/.10 to .25/.50 (5xBB), but this one hasn't been too bad.

I had my worst session (psychologically speaking) last night. After dropping about 20BB early, I stormed back and was up about 30BB. I slowly leaked down to about +10BB or so, and decided that I would call it a night because I'd banked a nice plus session. As is my SOP, I unclicked "auto post blinds" and waited for the BB to come around before logging off. You can probably guess the rest of the story. I got 3 "must play" hands in a row, and lost them all in squeakers, erasing all my gains and leaving me with a net loss of 8BB. I know it's a minor loss, but it was just psychologically devastating for me because I really felt like I was getting the hang of things and had already mentally banked the session as a win. I would've gone on tilt if I hadn't been quitting, but instead I just ranted about the losses to my wife, who asked me why I was playing if it got me so upset (which is a good question!).

[pointcount]

yes, I too am in the same boat. Started at 2c/4c, moved all the way up through the limits growing my BR and eventually getting to the stage where I could sit in at a 1/2 table and have 60BB in play. This is when things get a little weird.. I seem to lose a lot, and when I win it's often small and meaningless in comparison to what I dropped.. To this date (a week of pretty solid playing) I have not been able to crack the game. The players on the surface appear to be a 50% mixture of fish and people who know what they're doing. I play 2 tables, have pretty good reads on the players but I seem to continously get large losses and small (if any) wins.

Wonder how I can break this...

[zerosports]

I was a winning player at about 4.2bb/100hands in .5/1 on party. I started 1/2 yesterday and am already down 100bb. I am going to post some hands soon to see if its my play or just a horrible time for a downswing /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a winning player at about 4.2bb/100hands in .5/1 on party. I started 1/2 yesterday and am already down 100bb. I am going to post some hands soon to see if its my play or just a horrible time for a downswing /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck posting hands -- all of my hand histories for last night are garbage:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>***** Hand History for Game 838875243 *****
1/2 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Thu Aug 12 21:57:33 EDT 2004
Table Lion's den (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: dfscott62 ( $48.50)
Seat 2: brig1 ( $45.70)
Seat 3: inmanr ( $113.50)
Seat 4: Dealcahill ( $34.38)
Seat 5: GrindWheel ( $85.25)
Seat 6: vikingjim ( $37.25)
Seat 7: ChecknRaise ( $106)
Seat 8: deuceroyal ( $78)
Seat 9: LeonGray ( $46.50)
Seat 10: bor474 ( $77.33)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dfscott62 [ 2c, 8d ]
bor474 folds.
dfscott62 folds.
Dealcahill folds.
vikingjim folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3d, Ts, 6h ]
LeonGray folds.
brig1 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Js ]
ChecknRaise checks.
deuceroyal checks.
inmanr checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
ChecknRaise checks.
deuceroyal checks.
inmanr checks.
inmanr folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $29.50 | Rake: $1
Board: [ 3d Ts 6h Js 6s ]
dfscott62 balance $48.50, didn't bet (folded)
brig1 balance $43.70, lost $2 (folded)
inmanr balance $108.50, lost $5 (folded)
Dealcahill balance $34.38, didn't bet (folded)
GrindWheel balance $107.75, bet $7, collected $29.50, net +$22.50 [ Jc Ac ] [ two pairs, jacks and sixes -- Ac,Jc,Js,6h,6s ]
vikingjim balance $36.75, lost $0.50 (folded)
ChecknRaise balance $99, lost $7 [ 7d 7s ] [ two pairs, sevens and sixes -- Js,7d,7s,6h,6s ]
deuceroyal balance $71, lost $7 [ Td Ad ] [ two pairs, tens and sixes -- Ad,Td,Ts,6h,6s ]
LeonGray balance $44.50, lost $2 (folded)
bor474 balance $77.33, didn't bet (folded) </pre><hr />
Pretty tricky to get a 15BB pot with nobody betting, huh? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Until PP gets their hand histories fixed, I think I'm playing somewhere else. It feels like I'm driving with my eyes closed...