What the fuh? I'm too sexy for these cards....

[juanez]

Pretty good action at this table. I just got on it about 30 hands earlier and have been doing pretty well. This one was interesting:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: juanez is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">juanez raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">juanez bets</font>, CO folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">juanez bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, juanez calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 8.75 BB, returned to juanez.</font>

Was my play terrible here? I think UTG+1's was worse /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[siccjay]

He obviously put you on a flush draw and made a super laydown.

[Peter Harris]

bizarre. I raise PF if the table is well tight, with limpers i'd limp too. is this wrong?

flop, good bet i reckon. Turn you may as well follow up with another bet, the raise is scary. I would be folding the river for 1 bet (yes, i would) or check behind.

The river fold is pretty great, as i think it's the only way of you winning this pot uncontested.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Zetack]

You played great on the river!!! I can see you've spent a lot of time and effort honing your river playing skills--and its paying off for you.

--Zetack

[easypete]

I guess the "River Play" section in SSH came in handy.

Just one question. AJo...

I'm not a huge fan of this pf raise to EP limper. Don't know why. Maybe it's the way I play it.


If first in from EP, limp.
If first in from MP, Raise. If called, then limp.
In LP, raise first in, else limp.
In all positions, fold if facing a raise.
If in SB, raise if first in or 1 limper, RR LP raiser (if blinds steal), fold to EP or MP raiser.
In BB check if more than 1 limper, else raise. Call 1 raise.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a huge fan of this pf raise to EP limper. Don't know why. Maybe it's the way I play it.


If first in from EP, limp.
If first in from MP, Raise. If called, then limp.
In LP, raise first in, else limp.
In all positions, fold if facing a raise.
If in SB, raise if first in or 1 limper, RR LP raiser (if blinds steal), fold to EP or MP raiser.
In BB check if more than 1 limper, else raise. Call 1 raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Limping with AJo isn't something you want to do at all. You are most likely giving the blinds a free play as well as letting marginal garbage from the loose players see a cheap flop.

I raise AJo from anywhere, including the SB, and occasionally the BB, in an unraised pot. It is an easy laydown to a raise, like you said.

Haupt_234

[bdk3clash]

I generally play AJo just like you, except for every time you say "limp" I replace it with "raise."

Also, I would have folded the turn here, but your river play is truly inspirational.

[Brian]

Fold to the check-raise on the Turn. Calling this down against an unknown will cost you a ton of money.

-Brian

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping with AJo isn't something you want to do at all. You are most likely giving the blinds a free play as well as letting marginal garbage from the loose players see a cheap flop.

I raise AJo from anywhere, including the SB, and occasionally the BB, in an unraised pot. It is an easy laydown to a raise, like you said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. I will re-raise w/ 2 limpers in LP iff I know the 2 limpers are fairly weak players.

I just don't feel comfortable with this. I don't remember a reference of this in any books (I don't have any here, but will check when I get home). If there are any posters that have books like SSH, HPFAP, Hilger's book, Carson's book, etc, let me know where this is.

I see plenty of advocating for raising first in and limping first in, but don't remember anything about raising limpers w/ AJo.

I don't want to realy place much emphasis on pf strategy much more in these forums (unless a blatent mistake), but I think this is marginal and just don't think it's really that much of an edge (+EV) in raising an EP limper w/ AJo. I do see first in raise as a +EV, and will continue to do it from MP on.

[ElSapo]

What do you think he has when he checkraises you on the turn? I would fold this here.

[bdk3clash]

Dude--have you seen the crap your opponents limp with? Step out of that comfort zone, raise that shizzle, and feel good about it.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to realy place much emphasis on pf strategy much more in these forums (unless a blatent mistake), but I think this is marginal and just don't think it's really that much of an edge (+EV) in raising an EP limper w/ AJo. I do see first in raise as a +EV, and will continue to do it from MP on.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, ask yourself these three simple questions. What will low limit players limp with in EP as well as MP? How many of those hands does AJo beat? Do I want a large multiway pot or a pot with fewer people?

Haupt_234

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I see plenty of advocating for raising first in and limping first in, but don't remember anything about raising limpers w/ AJo.

I don't want to realy place much emphasis on pf strategy much more in these forums (unless a blatent mistake), but I think this is marginal and just don't think it's really that much of an edge (+EV) in raising an EP limper w/ AJo. I do see first in raise as a +EV, and will continue to do it from MP on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise the limpers because you likely have the best hand while they have crap. It also will help you win the pot later if you miss and bet the flop.

Push your edges when they appear. AJ against a limper or two, or first in, is likely the best hand and you want to play it as such.

Also - you don't place much emphasis on pre-flop strategy? Perhaps I misread you. This is a tremendous error -- in these low-limit games, and especially at this stage where your game is developing, pushing a pre-flop edge is tremendous. Playing tighter than your opponents and being more agressive with better hands is going to make up for a lot of error/slop that occurs post-flop.

[btspider]

having the button with AJ is very important, so raise limpers in MP and CO.

not having a huge family pot is important, so raise everywhere to fold the blinds and more players.

knowing that the LP raise is a stronger play when you have already raised from EP/MP is important. its easier to know when you are beat if you are the preflop raiser. AJo leads to a lot of guessing situations and you should feel more comfortable with it having raised PF.

experiment with it for a few hands and see how the table responds.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Also - you don't place much emphasis on pre-flop strategy? Perhaps I misread you. This is a tremendous error -- in these low-limit games, and especially at this stage where your game is developing, pushing a pre-flop edge is tremendous. Playing tighter than your opponents and being more agressive with better hands is going to make up for a lot of error/slop that occurs post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you read me right, I just posted bad.

What I should have said is that I feel that my pf strategy is very good. I can adapt my strategy between LAGs, LPGs, TPGs, and TAGs. I understand most of the value of most hands very well. All of us have something to learn here, but I don't have very many leaks in my pf strat's.

The other point I should have made (had it written, just deleted it before posting it) was that according to quite a few posters on this forum (EM, NPA included), the most mistakes made by us is weak flop play. I meant that I would like to see this forum focus on flop play a little more than pf play.

Sorry for the confusion.... Pre-flop play is critical. (But a much bigger chunk of money is lost on the flop).

BTW... still not convinced of this whole AJo raise vs EP limper(s).

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude--have you seen the crap your opponents limp with? Step out of that comfort zone, raise that shizzle, and feel good about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL... didn't know it was shizzle... that changes everything. Gamb000l

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
having the button with AJ is very important, so raise limpers in MP and CO.

not having a huge family pot is important, so raise everywhere to fold the blinds and more players.

knowing that the LP raise is a stronger play when you have already raised from EP/MP is important. its easier to know when you are beat if you are the preflop raiser. AJo leads to a lot of guessing situations and you should feel more comfortable with it having raised PF.

experiment with it for a few hands and see how the table responds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better.

I will play with this over the next month and see what happens.

[SomethingClever]

Dude, I can verify based on RESULTS that raising AJo is terrific. It wins more than QQ!

I'm kidding (well, in my last 8K hands, it actually DOES win more than QQ), but you should seriously be raising this unless someone has raised before you.

AJo is usually the best hand preflop. So you should usually raise it for value. Just pretend it's AKo if you have to. Except, when you're 3-bet and an A falls, consider folding if you meet strong resistance.

[ElSapo]

One other point on the way I play AJ -- if I raise and am 3-bet, I tend to not see the turn as often when I wiff. If I have AK, am 3-bet and miss the flop I'm going to still be fairly agressive depending on the action and the board. With AJ, I'm prone to check-folding b/c of the greater chance I have three-outs at best.

Any thoughts on this?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
One other point on the way I play AJ -- if I raise and am 3-bet, I tend to not see the turn as often when I wiff. If I have AK, am 3-bet and miss the flop I'm going to still be fairly agressive depending on the action and the board. With AJ, I'm prone to check-folding b/c of the greater chance I have three-outs at best.

Any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

My postflop play with AJo depends on a ton of factors.

How big is the pot?
Was I 3-bet preflop?
How coordinated is the flop?
What's my position?

If I'm first to act, I almost always bet a missed flop with AJo. If I'm raised, I can re-evaluate based on the board and any reads I have.

I only call a bet on a missed flop when the conditions are right and I think I have at least 6 outs, or my opponents are LAGGY.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
The other point I should have made (had it written, just deleted it before posting it) was that according to quite a few posters on this forum (EM, NPA included), the most mistakes made by us is weak flop play. I meant that I would like to see this forum focus on flop play a little more than pf play.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying, but weren't you the one who brought up his preflop play in the first place?

Haupt_234

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you are saying, but weren't you the one who brought up his preflop play in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes I did.

OK... one more (hopefully) clarification.

I brought it up as a question. That's why I detailed my pf play (to have some discusion on this hand). Then the discussion started. I stated (later):

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to realy place much emphasis on pf strategy much more in these forums (unless a blatent mistake)

[/ QUOTE ]

Implied "future tense" with the "much more".

AJo, I feel*, is borderline (raise/limp) enough that it could go either way and not effect your winrate, and that limping or raising this hand utlimately has no real net EV change. Similar to completing the SB w/ Ax (you can do it as long is it's not raised, but folding will net you the same winrate for these hands). Hence, not really focusing on the pf play.

I don't know if I'm getting my point across here or not.

In saying that, I will take everybody's advice and try it out for size and see how it fits to test it.

*Now, in saying I "feel", I'm about 80% sure, but not completely sure. /images/graemlins/cool.gif Most of the plays we make in micros, I can find in books. I'm just saying I don't remember this one.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally play AJo just like you, except for every time you say "limp" I replace it with "raise."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm all over the place with AJo. In my early days, I folded it in EP and raised it in MP or LP. When I moved to tighter tables, I started limping with it EP &amp; MP, and still raised LP. Lately, I've started raising with it in all positions.

In all situations, I've always folded it to a raise if I wasn't already in, and I'm not re-raising if I already am.

In general, I think it's because I don't really know what to do with it. I feel like you're on thin ice when you flop an A in a raised pot with it. The only time I'm really happy is when the high card on the flop is a J, then you can show me my A on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
The only time I'm really happy is when the high card on the flop is a J, then you can show me my A on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I kinda like the TQK rainbow flop.

-Jaran

[DMBFan23]

the JJJ flop is nasty too.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only time I'm really happy is when the high card on the flop is a J, then you can show me my A on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I kinda like the TQK rainbow flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where's the excitement in that (other than raking the pot)?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[btspider]

since this is officially the AJo topic:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>,

normally i don't get this many cold-callers at this table. no reraise, so i'm sitting pretty likely dominating at least one of these guys.

Flop: (11 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, SB folds.

obviously a nice flop. but i though this hand emphasizes how the PF raise simplifies post flop. I bet, people will call with a piece of the board perhaps, but they'll generally just raise when I'm beat (or in LP for a free card play, which I'd 3-bet and then be wary of a cap).

Turn: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font>

certainly this is a VERY straightforward AJ postflop, but part of it is made possible with my PF raise.