getting full value from AA/KK

[Che]

When I play good players, I can usually get them all-in preflop with AA/KK when the blind/stack ratio is big (e.g. late in any tourney).

When I play weak players, I can usually get them all-in preflop with AA/KK regardless of the blind/stack ratio (e.g. Stars rebuy).

But against good players when the blind/stack ratio is medium, I'm wondering if I'm playing my AA/KK hands too fast and not getting enough value out of them.

Here's an example from the WCOOP #5:

I'm moved to a new table and open from the CO for 3xBB my first hand. I get the blinds.

A few hands later, I'm in the BB and find KK. I start getting really fidgety which reminds me why I don't play live. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Folded to the second largest stack at the table (41K) in the CO. Blinds are 300/600/a50. He opens for 1800, his third openraise in the five or six hands I've seen (all 3xBB).

Folded to me. Pot: 3150. I have 14500 after posting.

1. What should I do in the above scenario?
2. Would it change if I had 18-20K?
3. How about 30K+?
4. Would your answer(s) to questions 1, 2 and/or 3 change if you had AA instead of KK?

I apologize for asking such basic questions, but I think I may be losing opportunities to double (or at least win a bigger pot) by playing these hands too quickly.

Later,
Che

Edited to add pot size.

[Tosh]

Hi Che,

I make it 4.2k to go. Theres now 3k out there, if thats all I get I won't be that upset. If he's got a hand he's coming with you but if he's got cheese then trying to trap him is risky and not that profitable.

Normally when I hear people ask if they're not getting full value for big pairs, it means they don't raise enough with non premium hands. I know this isn't the case with you though, what gives? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Meatmaw]

Tosh,
what about hands like AJ, AQ, AK? If the flop has an A do you just suck it up and fold? I'm curious how you play if they come along and an Ace hits the flop. Thanks.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
it means they don't raise enough with non premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

just to clarify, you mean frequency of raises, not bet amount, right?? As in he should be raising more often, not raising a greater amount of chips.

[Tosh]

Yeah not raising enough hands, not chips.

[$DEADSEXE$]

I raise to 5000, hope he tries to make a move and come over me...by most likly going all in, If he doesn't then just pick up the 1800 and be happy with it.
When I want a player to come over the top of me...I usually like to raise to very round numbers...i.e. 5000,10000,15000,20000...depending on what the first raise was etc. Not sure why but it seems to work better than when I raise 2 or 3 times what the bet initial raise was.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
he should be raising more often, not raising a greater amount of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm going to raise, I raise the same amount regardless of my holding with one possible exception. If the raise is borderline as to whether I should make my normal raise or just push in (because my normal raise pc's me), then I probably push in with QQ but still make my normal raise with AA. I believe this will be difficult for my opponents to distinguish since they have no way of knowing exactly where I "normally" draw the line between a normal raise and just pushing in.

I posted this hand because I thought my stack size relative to a normal reraise made this a borderline play, and I was wondering whether people would advocate pushing or just raising to 4500 (or whatever). I was also wondering if AA or KK would make any difference.

I'm still wondering since only one person has addressed the amount of the raise, and he only did it for KK. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Oh well,
Che

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally when I hear people ask if they're not getting full value for big pairs, it means they don't raise enough with non premium hands. I know this isn't the case with you though, what gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I guess I'm just spending too much time second-guessing myself because I pushed in here and he folded. I think I played it too fast, but I wanted to double-check.

Thanks to all who responded,
Che

[Tosh]

I do think pushing was drastic, I think that would explain not getting any action.

[davidross]

That's the time to show your cards. You may not have maxed your win, but you might at least buy yourself a free steal later.

[Che]

david-

Excellent point. Wish I had shown. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

My thinking at the time was that I didn't want 1/3 of my stack in preflop out of position against a loose big stack who was likely to flat call. I played the hand scared is the bottom line, I guess.

I was hoping the overbet all-in might actually look weak and get a call from 99 or something, but most of the time even a loose player will fold to bet that big, obviously.

Che

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to the second largest stack at the table (41K) in the CO. Blinds are 300/600/a50. He opens for 1800, his third openraise in the five or six hands I've seen (all 3xBB).

Folded to me. Pot: 3150. I have 14500 after posting.

1. What should I do in the above scenario?
2. Would it change if I had 18-20K?
3. How about 30K+?
4. Would your answer(s) to questions 1, 2 and/or 3 change if you had AA instead of KK?

[/ QUOTE ]
Che, I think these are interesting questions and I'm not sure what the answer is. If you have AA, then you know you are not getting away from the hand no matter what flops, on these stack sizes/blind levels. (Even if your stack was 30K you couldn't get away from the hand.) Since you will be paying him off when he flops a set, it's important with AA to reraise at least enough that if he calls you he does not have the proper implied odds to hit his set (on the assumption he has a pocket pair). That would be the minimum amount to reraise with AA; the maximum would be as much as you think he will call.

(If the stack sizes were very very large, like 70K or more, then I believe it becomes more complicated with AA because there is the possibility that you could get away from the hand if your opponent hits a set, or if not actually get away from the hand, at least keep the pot small enough that you don't go broke.)

With KK you have a different consideration because even for moderate stack sizes you might get away from the hand if an ace flops. But I'm not sure what effect that consideration has on how much you should raise, at various stack sizes.

For example, suppose we assume that our opponent will call our allin reraise with AA-JJ, any AK, AQs, and AJs. Further assume that if you make a smaller reraise he will call with those hands and a few more (TT-88, AQ and AJ offsuit, ATs), but he will never reraise. Now my question is, on these assumptions, with which hand are you more inclined to push in, AA or KK? Is the answer that you are more inclined to push in with AA because with KK you'd like to save some chips those times an ace flops? Or are you more inclined to push in with KK to get the extra hands with aces (AQo, AJo, ATs) to fold, whereas when you have AA you want them to call preflop even though it's for less chips. And does it make a difference to this question whether your stack is 18K or 35K?

I'm just thinking out loud here, I'm not sure whether I'm on the right track.

[GoldenHorde]

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to the second largest stack at the table (41K) in the CO. Blinds are 300/600/a50. He opens for 1800, his third openraise in the five or six hands I've seen (all 3xBB).

Folded to me. Pot: 3150. I have 14500 after posting.

1. What should I do in the above scenario?
2. Would it change if I had 18-20K?
3. How about 30K+?
4. Would your answer(s) to questions 1, 2 and/or 3 change if you had AA instead of KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. With KK against a stack that large if I have him pegged as a LAG who might call a 3-4k raise with a big ace I push all in and show after he folds. With AA I mini-raise to 4-4.5k then push on any flop looks like you might be making a move might draw out a very marginal call.

2. nope

3. I might fool around a bit more with either seeing it as a great chance to double up assuming 60k gives you a great shot at a run in the money.

[La Brujita]

I would probably raise it to 4500 in all three instances to try to get him to play back at you.

I am starting to have some doubts about my nl game and am reexamining certain things but I just want to list two things I am pondering given the nature of internet play:

1. Are pot sized bets or even 90% or so always required to accomplish what you intend (mostly postflop issue headsup)

2. How important is it to not vary the amount you bet depending on what you hold given (i) you play against many different opponents and (ii) most are very unobservant.

No great anwers to either.

I am reading M.B.E's analysis and it is interesting but I am not sure for a few reasons:

1. You basically seem to indicate you need to raise enough so that if he flat calls he doesn't have correct implied odds for a set. That may be true but you have to adjust for the following:

a. the potential he might reraise and you can get all in

b. the chance he has overcards and you have him in a bad place

c. the chance he might flop his set and you flop one or spike one.

The third one is not that difficult to figure out I guess but I am not sure how you value the first two.

[durron597]

I know you were asking a more general question than what I'm about to say, Che, but the thought just occured to me: is it possible he was just trying to steal your blind (with little or nothing)? Thus if you raise he probably won't play back at you at all; maybe if you wait a really long time and then miniraise... does anyone know any way to try to provoke a re-resteal?

[Che]

durron-

[ QUOTE ]
is it possible he was just trying to steal your blind (with little or nothing)?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 open-raises from a big stack in 6 hands leads me to believe stealing with little or nothing is more likely than raising with a real hand. Quite a bit more likely, in fact. He could be a very tight player who happens to be on a hot streak, but this is unlikely.

One of the reasons I didn't even consider trying to get tricky by minraising was the fact that he probably was stealing and I didn't want to give him a cheap shot at taking my whole stack with J9 or something similar. All I would get in return for the risk was 1200 chips since he probably wouldn't put in anything postflop unless he hit it pretty hard and he certainly would not re-reraise with junk. (I'm assuming he was a reasonable player since he had a big stack at this point in this particular tournament. Most of the time, however, assuming a big stack is reasonable can be very costly.)

So, I thought my only options were raise to at least 4500, but probably 4800-5000, or push in.

Che

[betgo]

You reraise allin 5 times the pot, and you wonder why you didn't get action. In a recent $500 entry fee tournament, I reraised allin 4 to 7 times the pot with AK on about 5 different occasions, and didn't get called once. Reraising allin is a move you would make with AK, AQ, or QQ. With KK you want action.

You don't want to put in 1/3 of your chips before the flop against a bigger stack in general, but with KK what is the problem? If an ace flops but not a king, you want to play very cautiously. Otherwise, you are ready to commit all your chips; there is no way you are going to be bullied out of the pot.

In general, at a higher level, you cannot expect to make as much with premium hands. You are usually not going to be able to double up with a big pair. I mentioned how I 5 times picked up about 5xBB by reraising allin with AK. That is actually not a bad result. With AA or KK, you would like to get a little more, but good players are not going to put all their chips in without a very strong hand.