free play, failed check raise, FPS

[DMBFan23]

Mainly looking for comments on turn play, but all other comments welcome as well. people were betting at this table with draws and middle pair/average kicker. This is also my first time using the hand converter. damn Bison, you da man...

Absolute Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

River: (13.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between Hero and UTG.</font>

[kgrad5]

lead the turn, if it gets checked through and someone catches on the river then what?

[TommyTutone]

I probably would have bet the flop. Admittedly you are advertising top pair, but if this will hopefully drive out someone with an ace or king, so much the better.

[kgrad5]

i dont mind the check on the flop, see what others think of their hand, if theres an early position bet i might consider folding, if theres a late position bet, i would probably raise, if its checked through, your hand is good

[DMBFan23]

my reasoning on the turn was that after it checked through on the flop, as far as people knew I was checking and folding...and I didnt think it would check all the way around the turn with 7 people in the pot...I didnt know if I was intelligently continuing to mask strength and making the most of the fact that my check raise on the flop failed or suffering from a case of making a fancy play. top pair on the river was an easy bet.

[cjromero]

I respectfully disagree with kgrad on this one.

With 7 players seeing the flop, the only way I check this flop with top pair is if I am trying to induce CO or button to take a stab at the pot, so I can check-raise and hopefully knock out some overcards.

And would you really fold top pair/mediocre kicker to one bet from an EP player on Party? I can't see doing that unless I had a specific read that the EP player making the bet was a very, very solid player. Even then, he could be betting a straight draw, A9, or the like.

[kgrad5]

i said "think" and thought about taking it back, but i was just stressing position, likely i wouldnt fold, but i would tread carefully. The check was a try at a checkraise which since there are 7 people in the pot, its pretty likely someone will bet and i dont think its such a bad move. I like to lead out in these situations personally, lead every street and only slow when im raised.. but i can see a case for the check raise /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]


With 7 players seeing the flop, the only way I check this flop with top pair is if I am trying to induce CO or button to take a stab at the pot, so I can check-raise and hopefully knock out some overcards.



[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this was definitely a check raise attempt, most players would bet with a piece of this flop...K8, Q4, etc...I figured with 7 players to the flop, someone had a piece. maybe they did, maybe not, who knows.

with 7 players in the pot, should I have been confident in someone betting the turn? I figured the chance of many people faced with 2 bets cold at this point was worth the very small chance of it getting checked around twice, as my hand is still vulnerable, and I'd be willing to pay off a river raise the times that it does check around that second time and J8 or A2 catches and beats me, in order to build a bigger pot for the times that someone bets and I'm good. is this flawed reasoning?

[ErrantNight]

alright everyone...

you bet this flop... you have top pair into a field of no-bettors... don't get cute

you lost bets here when you have the best hand, and you'll lose bets by handing out free cards when someone catches with crap

bet to get more money into the pot when you have the best hand and to push people out of the pot when you don't have the best chance of improving when others might

headsup in a short-handed game maybe this play is ok, not here. don't get cute!

[ErrantNight]

the point here is that this is not a check raising situation.

[kgrad5]

i disagree, i think this is a prime check raising opportunity if you want to thin the field with 7 players and your confident someone will take a stab at it, even though its not the line i would take i think its a fine play, it didnt work this time but given the same thing 10 times 9 out of 10 someone will bet, especially on party

[DMBFan23]

to check raise, I thought two conditions have to apply.

1) I think I have the best hand (but not a slowplaying hand)
2) I must be fairly sure someone will bet if I check.

most likely, and most likely.

(lets ignore the fact that (2) didn't happen this time, I'm still fairly sure it will in a pot this multiway) further, in that passage they go on to say that sometimes the most desirable characteristic of check raising is to make it incorrect for longshot draws to call (by giving them two cold), as the size of the pot on the flop relative to one small bet is often big enough to give hands like middle pair proper odds to chase.

I'm at work, so that was paraphrased...I'll look up the passage later.

I guess I'm just confused as to why this was a CLEAR CUT non-check raise situation. This isnt my standard angle of attack in this situation, but I mix in check raises with TP every now and then...are you saying that's never right?

[cold_cash]

It's not a "clear cut" no checkraising situation at all, but I would have bet the flop.

If your kicker was worse and/or the board was more coordinated, I think check-raising is a good option.

[DMBFan23]

given my flop line, how bout the turn?

[kgrad5]

given your line, bet the turn, if it gets checked through again, what have you accomplished? (sorry if you specifically asking cold_cash)

[flexus]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a "clear cut" no checkraising situation at all, but I would have bet the flop.

If your kicker was worse and/or the board was more coordinated, I think check-raising is a good option.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you be more inclined to check/raise with a worse kicker? I am asking because I would rather check raise with a hand with a stronger kicker (I also think this example is a fine oppurtunity to try and force you opponents to make mistakes on the flop by checkraising)

[cold_cash]

With a 9 kicker I'm more inclined to believe I have the best hand, so I would lean toward betting.

If I had top pair w/ a 4 kicker, for example, I would check this flop and hope a bet came from the cutoff or button so I could raise. If an early position player bets instead, I can call if the pot's big enough, or I can fold.

Like I said, I don't think going for a check-raise on this flop is bad idea. (Although because the board is so uncoordinated the chances of someone betting a draw are slim.) With a 9 kicker though, I would feel good enough (though not great) about my hand that I would bet. If I do have the best hand, which is more likely with a 9 than a 4, I don't want any free cards coming off in the unlikely even that it gets checked around.

[DMBFan23]

if I have the best hand with a 9 but not with a 4, I'm screwed whether I bet or check raise

EDIT: (bet or check raise with Q4)

[cold_cash]

How do you figure?

[DMBFan23]

I edited it once because I was retarded, and I wished I could delete it as I was editing it. sometimes I'm not too smart.

apparently the turn decision isnt as controversial as I thought, so I'll end the "suspense" by saying MHWG.

[cold_cash]

Rock on.

Just for the record, this hand isn't an easy one to play, and I've asked the same question you did a number of times. There are lots of different things to take into consideration when you're playing marginal/crappy hands from out of the blinds.

The "check and hope the bet comes from late position so I can check-raise" approach is one that I'm still working on, and one that I continue to screw up on a regular basis.

I'm hoping we'll get some more replies, because I always keep my eye out for posts like this one.