Was this QTo play un-2+2-like?

[nolanfan34]

After this hand, the victim claimed my play was "terrible", and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster".

First time I've been called out like that. But after reading SSH, I think this wasn't THAT fishy. Thoughts?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Standard call here right? This was the first hand I played after sitting down, so no solid reads yet. I was assuming all of the limpers would call, and they did.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

With the bet to me, I'm easily getting the odds to call with my gutshot here, right? And if a Q or T falls I may even have the best hand.

Turn: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

This might be the fishy part. I assumed both limpers fellow limpers would also call, although only one did. Wasn't sure if I could make up enough bets on the end to justify calling with my gutshot, I thought it was close, and I swear I heard Ed Miller saying "don't fold" in my ear.

River: (10.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 18.25 BB, between Button and Hero.</font>

So was that play as bad as it seemed?

[Tosh]

Raise the flop.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Isn't that more likely to drive people out, leaving me heads up with the raiser? Putting in 2 bets on the flop makes the odds incorrect I think.

In Ed's book, I think he talks about using the check-raise in a spot like this when you want to make people face two bets cold, to drive them out. In this spot, I WANT limpers who could be drawing nearly dead if I hit my gutshot, don't I?

[cold_cash]

A flop raise will give you a better chance to win if you catch a Queen or a Ten. (Assuming it cuts some of the dead weight behind you.)

I think the pot is too big not to do it.

[kenewbie]

[ QUOTE ]
A flop raise will give you a better chance to win if you catch a Queen or a Ten. (Assuming it cuts some of the dead weight behind you.) I think the pot is too big not to do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting issue, when faced with the option of either driving out players to clean up my overcards or keep them in to assure I get the odds I need on my long shot, I usually go for the latter. This might be one big-ass leak.

Anyone able to do the math under the assumtion that raising always cleans up all your outs?

k

[HajiShirazu]

First of all where did you find a stars table where FIVE people took the flop? I guess all the big cards magically dropped from the deck in a coordinated nature for one amazing hand of multiway glory. I mean, stars was a total joke rockfest when I played there. Half those people play less hands than me, and that's scary. Come join the party.
Calling preflop is poor. I mean, even if we're going by SSH, it pretty much says not to call raises with "the weak offsuit hands."
You should really take advantage of the opportunity to checkraise this flop.
I don't like the turn call. For it to be right, all four of your outs have to always be good, you have to never have a raise on this turn behind you (which could EASILY happen given this turn card,) and you have to be sure that you will collect at least two bets on the river if you hit which might not be so easy considering the bettor could have a QQ type hand that he checks through on the river.
The victim's comments were also "terrible" and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster."

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all where did you find a stars table where FIVE people took the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing at Stars working off my reload bonus there. Honestly, the play has been a lot looser than I remembered. MicroBob and others have also mentioned noticing this. The play is plenty loose for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling preflop is poor. I mean, even if we're going by SSH, it pretty much says not to call raises with "the weak offsuit hands."

[/ QUOTE ]

Two bets cold I would fold of course, but in the BB with one bet to call in a likely 5-way pot, I don't think a call is horrible here.

[ QUOTE ]
For it to be right, all four of your outs have to always be good, you have to never have a raise on this turn behind you (which could EASILY happen given this turn card,) and you have to be sure that you will collect at least two bets on the river if you hit which might not be so easy considering the bettor could have a QQ type hand that he checks through on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt my 4 J's were probably clean. You are right that by calling I was risking a CR from one of the limpers on the turn, but if that happened, it would be very hard to fold with a pot that large, potentially drawing to the nuts. That's something I've taken away from reading SSH, that you'll lose a lot of money in the long run folding hands that have live draws when you only have to call one more BB.

[ QUOTE ]
The victim's comments were also "terrible" and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster."

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. At least bust out some sort of brown trout reference if you're going to scold me /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Sarge85]

Gutshot+2 Overcards is one of my favorite hands. I'd CR the flop here.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting issue, when faced with the option of either driving out players to clean up my overcards or keep them in to assure I get the odds I need on my long shot, I usually go for the latter. This might be one big-ass leak.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's a big leak if you do this when the pot is large. Without getting into some example hand with math, just understand that raising here will generally give you a better chance to win the hand...maybe 10% to 20% for the sake of argument. So is raising better then calling? With a small pot NO. With a large pot YES. Do you see why in terms of expected value?

I agreee with Tosh that this is a definite spot to raise the flop.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see why in terms of expected value?

I agreee with Tosh that this is a definite spot to raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see what you guys are saying. So, say I CR here, and 2 of the 3 other limpers plus the PF raiser all call.

The A falls again on the turn.

Check/call the turn, correct? If a blank falls I'd bet out.

[cold_cash]

If your check-raise fails to fold out those behind you, deciding whether to bet a blank on the turn depends on your basic semi-bluffing stuff, I think.

If you're still against 4 opponents, all of whom are unlikely to fold, betting has less value. Add to this the possibility you may get raised when you can't fold, and the low likelihood that your hand is best, and I would lean toward checking.

If someone else bets and you've got pot odds/implied odds to call a bet, call.

[Ed Miller]

I would fold preflop. The raiser is on your right which allows you to protect a vulnerable hand more easily, but it also makes marginal hands and draws (that you will often make with QT) very difficult to play. Add that to "you will often be dominated," and you are probably better off folding.

As for the flop play, I'm going to refer you to an example on the bottom of p.159 of SSH. I agree that when the hand goes down as it did, check-raising is probably the best play. Also consider betting out on the flop. You have a decent draw in a large pot. When the pot is large, it's almost always worthwhile to knock out other players if doing so will noticably improve your winning chances. With two overcards, your hand qualifies.

On the turn, I think you should fold. The ace is a bad card for you, as you are now drawing mostly to the gutshot. Again, the bet is on your right and you might face a check-raise. You are getting only 8-to-1. Fold.

So ya, you kinda misplayed this one. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
So ya, you kinda misplayed this one. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Ed. I would try to argue my position, but hence, I didn't go to MIT /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

The ol' "misplayed on every street"...gotta love it. I can only take solice in the fact I dragged down that pot - this time at least.

I'll check out page 159 when I get home from work. Thanks for responding.

[sublime]

After this hand, the victim claimed my play was "terrible", and "very disappointing for a 2+2 poster".

Whats the #1 rule in fight club?

[bisonbison]

Whats the #1 rule in fight club?

I haven't been fd like that since grade school?

[sublime]

I haven't been fd like that since grade school?

Nope /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thet would be the #1 quote from Fight Club /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nottom]

Preflop: Calling a raise (in a non-steal situation) with little offsuit broadway cards is almost always a mistake, even from the BB. Don't do it.

Flop: OK you have a gutshot and two overcards, you position sucks but the pot is getting big. I think a raise is probably best in order to maximize the chances that your T or Q will be good if you hit.

Turn: The A makes it ugly because now its much less likely that your pair outs are good. You are getting 8-1 with 2 players left to act. This is close, if you expect a call behind you can probably take another card here but folding can't be very wrong either.

River: I'd probably bet. You don't want to force the caller to call 2 bets when you checkraise and it would be even worse if the PFR checked it through.

Overall, I think this hand was only moderatly fishy.