JJ preflop : The Final Discussion (for the FAQ)

[t_perkin]

Ok in an attempt to beef up the FAQ a little bit I want a nice long discussion on playing JJ preflop.

Anyone with any good old posts feel free to let me know about them too.

This is your chance to be famous - you will be a published poker authority and your name will be permenantly inscribed in the 2+2 forum!

Get your finest literary caps on ladies and gents.

JJ Preflop (in a NLHE SnG):

When do you play for pair value and when for set value?

When would you push all in?

When would you call an all in?

Would you reraise to a min raise?

Does it play differently at higher buyins than low buyins?

and of course anything else you would like to add.
______________________

Lets have it.

Tim

[ZeeJustin]

Raise, but don't reraise with JJ. Call raises, fold if it has already been reraised before you have acted.

Without going into great detail, I think this is the best advice possible. Obviously there will be many exceptions.

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Tim,

I'd like to "contribute" two threads, that deal with different aspects of playing JJ.

1. Early on in a game:

JJ blues (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=606 912&Forum=f22&Words=blues&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=606912&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post606912)

2. Very intriguing discussion regarding JJ on the bubble. One of the greatest threads, IMO, and not because I was the one asking the question:

Tough JJ hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=673537&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)

[Jason Strasser]

Ok, I'll have a rip at this. VERY GENERALLY:

With more than 10x the BB, open raise 3xBB from any position. If reraised, consider folding strongly. If called, play a set or overpair very aggressively, and sometimes take stabs at pots with one or two overcards, heads up, but not if it will commit your stack.

With more than 10xBB, call 3xBB or less raises with position, play a set or overpair hard, and back off otherwise.

If you have less than 10xBB, reraise all-in with JJ if its folded to you from any position. Go over the top all-in with JJ against most opponents opening raises, unless they are especially tight--or something suspicious happens, then fold.

In terms of calling all-ins, I don't think any good generalizations can be made. If it is not for a huge chunk of your stack, I strongly recommend calling. If you are getting bullied around, or whatever, this is a great hand to make a stand. If there is a raise and a reraise all-in in front of you, this is an easy muck. There are other scenarios too that are just useless to dive into under the "general" cloud.

[Jason Strasser]

The Tough JJ hand is a good thread, but has a lot of crap you'll have to wade through. (I think its a push)

[t_perkin]

Hehe I have got both of those posts lined up already /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[t_perkin]

[ QUOTE ]

With more than 10xBB, call 3xBB or less raises with position, play a set or overpair hard, and back off otherwise


[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include limps? i.e. you are playing for set value with other entrants in the pot and top pair value (or steal) value if you are first in?

Tim

[Jason Strasser]

Usually I'm raising for value after a few limps, and end up chucking it on most flops that are unfavorable. A lot of the times you do end up chucking your hand on the flop, but you are almost always correct raising here before the flop (FTOP). I make my standard 3xBB raise with more than 10xBB. With less, I push after limpers.

[fnurt]

I sure hope Lori was taking the piss in that tough JJ thread.

Either way, it strikes me as far too specific a situation to be useful for an FAQ.

[stupidsucker]

I recently posted a JJ hand involving a good lay down.

Good Lay down or too weak? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=856085&page=1&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#856085)

I think its a great example of playing JJ aggressivly enough, but not enough to get you in trouble.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I sure hope Lori was taking the piss in that tough JJ thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't exactly know what you mean by "taking the piss" (as English isn't actually my first language, etc, etc), but if you mean she was joking, so she wasn't. Lori is an excellent SNG player, despite the fact she rarely posts anything related to this on 2+2, and the fact that some people don't like her. She also has an amazing poker-mind, IMO. I've also exchanged some PMs with her regarding the JJ hand, and she made some very deep and impressive analysis of the hand, and of $EV of several different scenarios and types of opponents. It's not that she claims mini-raising is the only move, but she felt people here are neglecting some very valid options, and are WAY too sure of their thinking.

I don't want to defend her attitude toward this board, because she clearly has some sirious issues with how people write and express their thoughts. But as time passes, I tend to agree with her general opinion, about posters who seem to be much too decisive about their advice, while it's often pretty far from 100% correct. Also, I see more and more simply bad advice, and what's more: people who are just unwilling to accept the fact they are wrong, even if they are complete newbies. This could be very frustrating for more expirienced posters (not only Lori), who get tired, at some point, of all this stubborness.

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, it strikes me as far too specific a situation to be useful for an FAQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is possible, although I believe it's a great example of how complicate it is to play JJ in certain circumstances, perhaps more than most other hands. That's why I think it is appropriate for a "JJ FAQ". And also, good discussions about specific hands are a good way to introduce people to some of the fundamentals of SNG play at large.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that she claims mini-raising is the only move, but she felt people here are neglecting some very valid options, and are WAY too sure of their thinking.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
tend to agree with her general opinion, about posters who seem to be much too decisive about their advice, while it's often pretty far from 100% correct

[/ QUOTE ]

I can relate to these things emphatically. I try to objectivly look at situations and try to encourage discussions passed the usual thought process. Some people get very stern on their way is ALWAYS 100% correct and there will be no backing down. This limits disscussion, and stunts the learning process.

This thread is becoming something its not supposed to be... so im going to stop right here.

[fnurt]

I thought the advice was intriguing and well worth consideration. I was expressing hope that the delivery was tongue-in-cheek.

[PrayingMantis]

Yes, I agree with you about the advice. But I suspect the delivery was tongue-in-cheek only in some narrow sense. She was real angry at the forum, and was pretty sure, even before posting her advice, that people will not appriciate it. Her attitude didn't help her with that, and nobody realy understood her "joke", i.e, "pretending" to be a know-it-all. It's like image-play in poker. Everybody thought she's a prick, while her point was that everybody else is a prick, except maybe her...

It was a fun thread. It's a pity Lory has chosen not to post here. Maybe she'll change her mind some day.

[Che]

Blinds 15/30. Two or three limpers then some goofball pushes all-in for 879 chips or something ridiculous like that.

I call with JJ here as fast as possible (assuming that I'm not worried about any of the reasonable players at the table) since this is almost always a middle pair, Ax, KT, or just a straight bluff. I think I've seen this done with a hand that beat JJ once (QQ) versus tons of times that JJ was either ahead or miles ahead.

So combining my answers to the following two questions...

[ QUOTE ]
When would you call an all in?

Does it play differently at higher buyins than low buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

At low buyins, call preflop all-ins that are ridiculous overbets of the pot anytime you have JJ. (In fact, TT will do - maybe even 99.)

Of course, some may disagree with this assessment. Also, it may be too specific a situation to include in the FAQ, but I wanted to open it up for discussion.

BTW- Where can I find the FAQ?

Che

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW- Where can I find the FAQ?

Che

[/ QUOTE ]

FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=844952&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post856452844952)

[t_perkin]

Yes I think you are probably right, too specific.

I will move it to my "interesting specific hands section" which will be in the next version of the FAQ hopefully.
Kind of like the hand quiz sections of the S+M books only without the nice clean cut answers /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tim

[Eder]

Thanks for the links PM...lot of good advice in them....played a SnG after reading them...raised JJ from MP blinds at level 5 ...folded to a reraise(my normal response has been to push)...3 hands later I'm looking at JJ again on the button...folded to an all-in...went on to win...

I think playing JJ weaker saved me from busting here...thanks again

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Hehe I have got both of those posts lined up already /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I humbly request that you not include that entire thread in a FAQ?

There's too much line noise for that to be good FAQ, material, and I happened to have had a negative opinion of some behavior in that thread, which ended up watering it all down.

A summary of the various viewpoints is a good idea - the full thread is not good FAQ material.

eastbay

[t_perkin]

I was not intending to put whole threads in, just links and summaries.

Tim