Calling two raises preflop with 4d5d profitable?

[ChessMan]

Hi,

In early position I hold A10o. I decide this is playable so I think about raising or not. I decide not to and limp in.
One guy raised (player A), another guy called (player B), and everyone else folds. I decide that since I limped in they might think I'm holding garbage, so I reraise. Both other players call. I feel I'm overbetting, but I want some initiative on the Flop if I catch an overpair, or perferably have a nut straight draw.
This is a no limit game with BB of 50 and I'm short stacked (600 chips) because I haven't won a hand yet in this 20 seat sit and go. I was just randomly moved to this table so I don't know the players and they don't know me.

Anyway, Player B won cause he caught a straight on the turn.

On the flop, Ad 2d 6h, I catch an ace and bet half the pot. So dude has an inside straight draw, and a flush draw. I should have bet the whole pot. He had from his perspective about a 45% chance of getting a winning hand (unless I don't hold the same suit) and if the other guy folds, he has no implied odds worth the call since I have all my chips in the pot already and there aren't very many relative to the call.

As it turned out player A called all the way to the river too even after $500 bets from player B. He must have been holding AK or AA or something good.

I just took a chance on that hand and didn't think about a 45suited being there.

Is this common? It seems like it would be a profitable play if you can execute it right and get paid off if you hit.

I play connectors too, but usually only in good position and when there are plenty of players in seeing the flop so I can increase my payoff when I hit. I don't go in bad position or short handed unless it's super cheap.

Lesson learned!! Just let me know if this is good strategy. It looks like it is to me.

[astroglide]

I decide that since I limped in they might think I'm holding garbage, so I reraise.

against a raise ATo is most often garbage.

I want some initiative on the Flop if I catch an overpair

it is impossible to catch an overpair.

or perferably have a nut straight draw

you can only have a gutshot to the nut straight.

[ChessMan]

What about whether calling two raises 45 suited preflop is sound strategy? Is this generally regarded as a profitable call? It might be one of those things you might have to bluff once in a while to make profitable. I am not comfortable bluffing yet, I've only played for two weeks. Therefore maybe I should avoid trying to lay the same trap.

[Dov]

What about whether calling two raises 45 suited preflop is sound strategy? Is this generally regarded as a profitable call?

No, it is not profitable, usually. You failed to mention the tourney stats, though, other than that you were short stacked. In this specific case, your opponent may have had an ok play.

It might be one of those things you might have to bluff once in a while to make profitable.

You can't bluff by calling.

[Akasha]

Im no expert , I know this.

But as Astroglide pointed out in the first reply, this entire post was silliness. Am I in the poker humor forum?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
What about whether calling two raises 45 suited preflop is sound strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't worry about him until your own preflop strategy is sound. Limp reraising with ATo or calling 3 with 45s? hmmm.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a no limit game with BB of 50 and I'm short stacked (600 chips) because I haven't won a hand yet in this 20 seat sit and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have plenty of chips.

Work on your own game for now.

b

[ChessMan]

Alright, I'll try this a final time. Please, stop commenting on my poor play. I know it was poor.

My only question: is it generally considered long term profitable to play 45 suited when there are only 2 other people seeing the flop and they are representing fairly strong hands like AK or QQ or something.

I know that usually you won't hit, so usually it isn't profitable, but that one time you hit, you might be able to make a lot of chips. Therefore is it actually a profitable long term play?

If you don't know just don't reply. If I get no answer, I'll work out the math myself and I'll post the results here in a few days. This is the poker theory room right? Let's advance the theory then.

[Louie Landale]

ATo early at a full table is a routine toss; but calling only costs a little. Calling-and-reraising is obscene unless its you and the maniac in the blind; even then you are better off just calling.

Playing this trash in a tournament is even worse. ReRaising out of position without any chance to steal the pot is hopeless in No Limit, unless you really believe you can get someone to lay down a pair when you bluff AT the pot; whereas they would call had you NOT 3-bet.

You've got too many trouble-hand problems to waste time worrying about whether calling raises with 54s might sometimes be correct.

Fix the gas leak before the water leak.

- Louie

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
My only question: is it generally considered long term profitable to play 45 suited when there are only 2 other people seeing the flop and they are representing fairly strong hands like AK or QQ or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - You aren't even looking at the question correctly yet. (Hint: Calling 2 raises preflop does not always equal calling one raise then calling a second.)

2 - You never gave us all the information we needed. (Hint: Preflop raises in NL are not limited to the amount of the BB.)

[ChessMan]

Okay here's a hypothetical:

You are in late position. You hold 45 suited.

A couple players fold, one calls, one raises the minimum. So to call now you need to call 2xBB. You call. It's now back to the original limper. He raises! Hmmm. It's to back to the original raiser now and he calls. So now you need to call another 2xBB I think. So you call holding 45 suited. On the flop you have two cards to make your straight, and there is an Ace so there will be action.

Lets just say the flop is A36 and the 3 and 6 are even the right suit, so you have a flush draw too.

So the guy in early position likes the ace because he just made a pot-sized bet, and the next guy calls. You call too.

If you hit your straight, that's good. You'll probably make a lot of money because the other two guys have top pair.

Not all flops turn out that way. Sometimes there's a straight draw, but no Ace or King or anything anyone cares to make big bets at. So even if your straight hits, you don't make a lot of money.

The vast majority of the time the flop will not be helpful at all and so you've wasted 4xBB in calling preflop. If every time you hold 45 suited there happens to be a 4xBB call to make with two other players in how often will you hit your straight? The level of the call has nothing to do with how often you'll hit, but it does make it more expensive. I doubt you can make a profit over the long haul.

So there's the info. I can't spend any more time explaining it.

[Ouspensky]

Between the wheel and the ignorant end there are 4 ways to make a straight with 4 5. Between the possibility of the straight and the flush, suited middle connectors can be played in late position especially if the blinds do not often raise. Occaisionally these hands can be raised but only for the future value of keeping opponents from running over you when rags flop. If you can cheaply see a flop with these hands you will eventually see one that fits well and it'll pay you off in the long run. If it costs 3 bets to see the flop with these cards i do not imagine it'll be +EV.

But then, everything i said here came from re-reading HEFAP a few days ago so you're better off taking it from the source anyway.

[Michael Davis]

If this is no limit and the other players will pay you off when you hit, fine. One's range of playable hands in no limit correlates with how much the other players suck.

-Michael

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is no limit and the other players will pay you off when you hit, fine. One's range of playable hands in no limit correlates with how much the other players suck.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

As well as how deep the stacks are of said suck-players and the size of your stack.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay here's a hypothetical:

You are in late position. You hold 45 suited.

A couple players fold, one calls, one raises the minimum. So to call now you need to call 2xBB. You call. It's now back to the original limper. He raises! Hmmm. It's to back to the original raiser now and he calls. So now you need to call another 2xBB I think. So you call holding 45 suited. On the flop you have two cards to make your straight, and there is an Ace so there will be action.

So there's the info. I can't spend any more time explaining it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can. You already said this is a SnG tournament. How many players are left? What are the stack sizes of ALL the remaining players (not just the ones in the hand). What are the table images of the players in the hand? In a NL SnG, there's more to consider than just "Do I call a raise with 45s?" If I had 10,000 in chips, I probably would.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I'll try this a final time. Please, stop commenting on my poor play. I know it was poor.

My only question: is it generally considered long term profitable to play 45 suited when there are only 2 other people seeing the flop and they are representing fairly strong hands like AK or QQ or something.

I know that usually you won't hit, so usually it isn't profitable, but that one time you hit, you might be able to make a lot of chips. Therefore is it actually a profitable long term play?

If you don't know just don't reply. If I get no answer, I'll work out the math myself and I'll post the results here in a few days. This is the poker theory room right? Let's advance the theory then.

[/ QUOTE ]



Also remember that there will ALWAYS be people that play badly at your table. I believe it's far more prevalent live than online (I'm sure others will disagree, they are welcome to) but I'm shocked when I'm at a live table and there are more than a few people I consider to be solid players. Likewise, online, you're going to get a majority of opponents that are ... well ... doing crazy stuff.

The fact that they are shouldn't make it that you do stuff crazy because they are. Just get in when you have the best of it and, in the future, when you get caught limping in out of position with crap like A-10 offsuit, try just calling, rather than tilting off a reraise, because either you're most likely beat by a solid player OR your 3-betting a guy who won't read you for anything as he's terrible.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay here's a hypothetical:

You are in late position. You hold 45 suited.

A couple players fold, one calls, one raises the minimum. So to call now you need to call 2xBB. You call. It's now back to the original limper. He raises! Hmmm. It's to back to the original raiser now and he calls. So now you need to call another 2xBB I think. So you call holding 45 suited. On the flop you have two cards to make your straight, and there is an Ace so there will be action.

Lets just say the flop is A36 and the 3 and 6 are even the right suit, so you have a flush draw too.

So the guy in early position likes the ace because he just made a pot-sized bet, and the next guy calls. You call too.

If you hit your straight, that's good. You'll probably make a lot of money because the other two guys have top pair.

Not all flops turn out that way. Sometimes there's a straight draw, but no Ace or King or anything anyone cares to make big bets at. So even if your straight hits, you don't make a lot of money.

The vast majority of the time the flop will not be helpful at all and so you've wasted 4xBB in calling preflop. If every time you hold 45 suited there happens to be a 4xBB call to make with two other players in how often will you hit your straight? The level of the call has nothing to do with how often you'll hit, but it does make it more expensive. I doubt you can make a profit over the long haul.

So there's the info. I can't spend any more time explaining it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first of all, I don't see a question in there other than wondering how often will you hit your straight. You can also win with your flush, or 2 pair, or trips.

Second, as other posters have pointed out, you failed to mention where in the tournament this was (early, mid, late, final table, etc), and what the stack sizes were in relation to the blinds (very deep, small, etc). This has a huge effect on whether you'll play or not.

Third, nothing was mentioned about the opponents - are they agressive? passive? loose? tricky? This also affects whether you'll play.

Calling a min raise with position against a player who is weak, passive, and has a huge stack is perfectly fine.

Calling a min raise with position against a player who is tough, tricky, and aggressive, is bad.

<font color="white"> Bad beat posts are dumb.</font>

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, Ad 2d 6h, I catch an ace and bet half the pot. So dude has an inside straight draw, and a flush draw. I should have bet the whole pot. He had from his perspective about a 45% chance of getting a winning hand (unless I don't hold the same suit) and if the other guy folds, he has no implied odds worth the call since I have all my chips in the pot already and there aren't very many relative to the call.


[/ QUOTE ]

You say the BB was 50. So you called preflop, one guy raised (say to 100), one guy called, blinds folded you reraised (say to 150) and they both called.

The pot is now 525 (150 + 150 + 150 + 50 + 25). If you bet 600, your opponent will be getting almost 2-1 on his call, and he doesn't need anything close to those odds to call here against your hand.

(edit: you had 600 before the hand started, so you could only bet 450 on the flop. This gives him even better odds)