I Suck at Poker : A4s in MP

[GuyOnTilt]

2+2 table. Tables in tight mode for the orbit plus I've been here. Four folds to me and I open-raise with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Bison on my immediate left 3-bets. Folded around to me and I muck.

The table didn't like it at all. What say you?

GoT

[JohnShaft]

I say I don't like the open raise and I like the fold even less. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Especially at a table of rampant 3-betters like this table has had in the past.

Admittedly it's going to be very uncomfortable postflop, and you could be dominated, but getting 6-1 I'll grit my teeth and call.

[Alobar]

I don't like the fold. I'm assuming you made the play hoping for a large part to be able to take the blinds or at least win the flop with a bet, when you get 3-bet and then fold, you basically showed thats what you were hoping for and at a table full of tight aggresive players I don't think you want them knowing you'll fold to a 3 bet pre flop, its inviting them to take shots at you, and it takes away some of your ability to steal pots which is were a lot of your money can be made at a table like this. But then again everyone at the table knows you, so this one play really isn't going to change anyones "read" on you, but getting close to 6-1 and for image sake I still make the call.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Irony has it that GoT said he hated these Tommy Angelo-esque folds.

[GuyOnTilt]

Irony has it that GoT said he hated these Tommy Angelo-esque folds.

I hated them with 22 and T9s. This is a lot different.

GoT

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Irony has it that GoT said he hated these Tommy Angelo-esque folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree this is a much less Angelo-esque fold than Tommy's 22 though. This fold is somewhat defensible.

[balkii]

It seems pretty close...but I think the fun in outflopping your opponent with this hand makes up for any possible negative EV from calling here.

[Clarkmeister]

What, did you forget how to play postflop?

[Trix]

I want a better kicker to make this raise, A9s, maybe a little less. Anyways, there is no way I fold getting 6.5:1 after his raise...

I dont know why you think this is much different from 98s and 22...

You cant throw any of them away if you make a pair on a ragged flop...

[bakku]

LOL, 'bakku' isn't really bison, we were screwing with ya. Although I don't think it makes too much of a difference, I 3-bet you, not bison.

[bakku]

Especially at a table of rampant 3-betters like this table has had in the past.

While it's true that the table is pretty LAG, any observant player will notice I don't LAG it up like the others do and I won't 3-bet with crap. I do think the fold was bad, though.

[Tosh]

Well the 3 bet probably means he has at least 49o.

[bisonbison]

LOL, 'bakku' isn't really bison, we were screwing with ya. Although I don't think it makes too much of a difference, I 3-bet you, not bison.

Our plan is working.

[GuyOnTilt]

What, did you forget how to play postflop?

Did I ever learn?

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Well the 3 bet probably means he has at least 49o.

No, his 3-bet meant a legitimate 3-betting hand. Yes, I'm getting 6.5:1 on my call preflop, but I'm almost always going to be drawing to 3 outs and not knowing which three I want, out of position against a 2+2'er who has the initiative, with plenty of reverse implied odds and not too much in the way of implied. Of course I'm not a 6.5:1 dog against any of his potential hands, but as I've said in similar preflop situations before, the pot odds weren't the issue here. Avoiding said situation was.

GoT

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Not fond of the fold. There are enough bets in the pot to make a call here.

[MrGo]

It seems like you're giving a lot of credit for a player who posts on 2+2. We're not all expert players /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

See the flop...see the flop!

[Tosh]

When I was at the table A4s figured to be a monster against a 3 bet by most of the players. Against a genuine 3 bet I'm not interested in playing the hand either. I made a similar fold against Mike Gallo at the table a whle ago and he showed the dominating hand. Of course I never knew what I hoping to hit then either and pot odds or no I think the situation is -ev. I don't blame you for folding at all.

[MarkD]

At the time the table was playing sane. Everyone was trying to play well. It was a legitimate 3-bet. I think it was wrong to fold though.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, there is no way I fold getting 6.5:1 after his raise...

I dont know why you think this is much different from 98s and 22...

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon Trix, you ought to be able to spot a huge difference between A4s and 22 in this situation by now. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

The reason why A4s isn't that great is (as GOT has pretty much mentioned) you don't know what you need to hit.

Are you against a dominating Ace, and need to hit the 4? (And which big card do you need to not hit? KQJT?)
Are you against a pocket pair and need to hit your Ace?

So basically, it's impossible to know if you need to hit your Ace, or your kicker.
So you have 3 outs at best and could be totally dominated. Either way you will have no idea where you are.
The only 'good spot' you are in is if you just got isolated by big cards not containing an Ace (KQJ), and even then it's not going to be a lot of fun to play out of position against a decent opponent.

So A4s isn't great here, even at 6-1 it's not that great.

Now, you tell me why folding 22 here, getting over 6-1 is *almost certainly* wrong, and _VERY_ different from GOT's fold?

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

So A4s isn't great here, even at 6-1 it's not that great.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but with that being the case, shouldn't you just muck it if you're not willing to call the 3-bet and see a flop?

[bakku]

When I was at the table A4s figured to be a monster against a 3 bet by most of the players.

Although this is true for the most part, I'm not one of those players who comes to the 2+2 table to screw around. GoT was observant enough to know I wasn't 3-betting with random crap.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not one of those players who comes to the 2+2 table to screw around. GoT was observant enough to know I wasn't 3-betting with random crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good on ya.
Bak can we ask you what you DID have? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Trix]

What I ment with it was not much different from 98s and 22 was that all 3 calls are based on implied odds. You aren´t folding here getting 6:1 + implied.
Sure you call down beeing behind all the way sometimes, but in the end you will make money.

I think you have enough overlay to not continue any flop with K/Q/J/TX4, but only 4xx, Axx, 4flushs, plus maybe a few more, with A4. Sure you wont win them all, but he will have a pair when the A flops and overcards when the ragged 4 flops.

I dont think the 22 is that different. You have to continue if the flop comes rags and you might loose to a PP, like when you flop a 4 with Ax(Ax will reverse dominate often when he dont have the pair also, but 22 can make sets).

[ QUOTE ]
Now, you tell me why folding 22 here, getting over 6-1 is *almost certainly* wrong, and _VERY_ different from GOT's fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

You will probably say: cuz you can play it only for the set.
But it´s not that simple as you will come in situations where you cant throw away on the flop based on math(the hands opponent can hold vs odds).

[JohnShaft]

Well it looks like we are looking at this very differently then, and I am suprised.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the 22 is that different. You have to continue if the flop comes rags

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, for a start, I don't think you have to continue at all. Consider, even if you are ahead on the flop to his overcards you cannot apply any pressure to him without digging yourself in pretty deep.
Consider the 'good flops' you described. For on they aren't that great if you are going to rule out all K.Q.J.T/4 flops. Because that is probably almost half of the 4 flops.
An overpair will make you pay the maximum just about every time if you are calling down to no big cards. And you will make the minimum when you are ahead of a reverse-dominated Ace.

Look at it this way, imagine there was no pot (but you had the bet/raise info on both hands).
Do you think it's close as to which hand you would rather have A4s, or 22?
With one hand (A4s) you will make less when ahead than you will lose when you are behind.
With the other, even if you just play on when you flop a set, you have a BIG chance of making a good number of bets.

I don't think it's close between A4s and 22 in these situations. I really don't.

Given that with A4s, it's easy to play on and bleed chips.
And with 22 it's easy to not play on AT ALL unless you flop a set, in which case you are both likely to have your opponent in a stranglehold, and make him pay through the nose (particularly when he has a big PP).

I really don't think it's close.

[ QUOTE ]
You will probably say: cuz you can play it only for the set.
But it´s not that simple as you will come in situations where you cant throw away on the flop based on math(the hands opponent can hold vs odds).

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually if you play it for a set (getting 6.5 to 1, and almost sure to extract bets out of EVERY hand your opponent has on EVERY flop) I think it's EXACTLY this simple.
I don't think 22 hanging around when it doesn't flop a set (and giving up bets) makes any rationale that's it's not that valuable.
If you can't make bets postflop on a non-set flop then you simply don't play it.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey JS,

I agree with everything you've said throughout this thread, except for your initial response. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's starting to sound like you actually like my fold or something...

GoT

[JohnShaft]

[I'll still just talk about 22 (98s is a different proposition which is why I never mentioned it.]

[ QUOTE ]
What I ment with it was not much different from 98s and 22 was that all 3 calls are based on implied odds. You aren´t folding here getting 6:1 + implied.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Implied Odds. They're all based on that.
The point is, your implied odds (what you are likely to make) with 22 are HUGE. Your opponent will put bets in with missed Aces, and he will really fire if he makes top pair, or he has an Overpair. This is a given.
With 22 you can play back at him HARD. And he is never going to put you on 22. He will put a lot of bets in before he thinks "Oh [censored]. He's got a set?"

With A4s your implied odds are mostly pretty horrible.
You need dream flops like A4x, and flush draws (and the implied odds on flush draws aren't that great, and you're playing headsup on a 2-1 draw).

These 2 hands in this situation are miles apart for Implied Odds for me.
So while I'm playing 22 for Implied Odds (because they are considerable), I'm equally disliking A4s for the *lack* of Implied Odds.
Same concept. Widely different values for the 2 mentioned hands.

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you've said throughout this thread, except for your initial response. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's starting to sound like you actually like my fold or something...


[/ QUOTE ]

Hahah. No, not quite. It really isn't half as bad as people are saying though, is it?
How it can be compared to 22 I really don't know.

I'm just waiting for Bakku to say he had A.K/Q in the hand, and we all go, "Oh, I guess the fold was probably quite reasonable then". /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm just waiting for Bakku to say he had A.K/Q in the hand, and we all go, "Oh, I guess the fold was probably quite reasonable then".

He flashed 88.

GoT

[JohnShaft]

[ QUOTE ]
He flashed 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's a tough 3-bet.
It still leaves you in almost as bad a position as if he had KK though I guess.
Which is why it was a tough spot.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Although this is true for the most part, I'm not one of those players who comes to the 2+2 table to screw around. GoT was observant enough to know I wasn't 3-betting with random crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got a bit pissed with it and just raised every hand the orbit before I left. I'm happy for the table to be a fun game or a serious game I just think its better if everyone treats it the same way.

[GuyOnTilt]

I got a bit pissed with it and just raised every hand the orbit before I left. I'm happy for the table to be a fun game or a serious game I just think its better if everyone treats it the same way.

Hmmmm. It was serious the whole time I was there. There was one hand where I jokingly said that everybody should limp and see who wins, and then everybody did, but other than that everybody was on their A-game or close to it it seemed. Maybe it was just you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

GoT

[Tosh]

Guy you know me, I have no A game. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I was there about 30 hands and it was a bit nuts, I ended up contributing to it after I got annoyed though I guess. Did scoop the nice 28BB pot though with J8o. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[1800GAMBLER]

Not long ago i tried to find a hand that is:

1. Correct to steal the blinds with. I set it has to be better than 2 hand hands.

2. Yet fold it to a reraise, we checked out the equity against the reraising hands and then discussed how it played against those and it's implied odds from the moment it hits pair.

I couldn't find one. Interestingly J6s came out worse than A2s.

Anyhow. Making this relevant to your post. The 3 bet range against you in this game will be wider than normal, making the fold even worse. You're getting 6:1(?) and you'll hit top pair 5:1 and from the moment you hit that pair you have positive implied odds for the next streets, not negative.

[bakku]

Bak can we ask you what you DID have? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I had 88. Although I was very surprised GoT folded I can't decide if I liked his play.

[bisonbison]

Sorry if I contributed to the nuttiness folks. I can stop the blind straddling.