J-10 off, straightforward play

[Zetack]

The thing is I hate unsuited connectors. But I don't think you should be controlled by your biases if you see what appears to be a postive Ev. Anybody disagree that this was one of those situations Pf?

Also, as I was wondering with the nuts on the river...what in the world do you think my opponent has?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

--Zetack

[JDErickson]

I see nothign wrong with the way you played it. Arguments could be made about the JTo limp PF but with so many callers I think it can be +EV in long run.

I put your opponent on KQo

Jim

[Jaran]

Hey Zetack,
I think the pf call is fine in this position, especially if the blinds don't raise a lot. I put MP1 on KQ or Q9.

-Jaran

[SeppDeitrich]

yeah on the button when noone has raised this is a call for sure.

[Brian]

Hi Zetack,

I muck this pre-Flop and don't think it's very close. JTo is trash, even on the Button with 4 limpers.

I'd raise the Flop. If that leaves us heads-up, great. He doesn't necessarily have a Queen, so I may have just cleaned up 6 of my outs. If the raise gets cold-called, then that's dandy too for EV and free card on the Turn.

-Brian

[young nut]

I would have raised preflop with the open ended. Best case scenario, you hit the straight on turn, but a decent case scenario is you get a free river card and elminate other players.

[cjromero]

I disagree with Brian on the preflop play. At the micro levels, I think it is fine to play J-10o in LP with several limpers, just so long as you realize that you are really looking for two pair or a straight as opposed to top pair and know when to release hands after the flop.

I agree with Brian on the flop play. I would have raised the flop with the OESD. Shouldn't you be trying to thin the field here? There are two diamonds on the board and you are also vulnerable to a better straight if you let people with overcards see the turn for just one bet. Is it that bad to try and get heads up with the preflop raiser?

[Joe Tall]

I muck this pre-Flop and don't think it's very close. JTo is trash, even on the Button with 4 limpers.

Brian,

I used to feel the same way but now I know it's very different. This is an easy button limp, even in multiway pots.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[AsusFull]

TJ doesn't make bad straights.

[AsusFull]

I was initially thinking it may be a good idea to raise on the button with the OESD for a free card, but some of you guys are saying call. Why would you call in this situation rather than raise?

Is it because his draw isn't as strong as he may like, since he doesn't have overcards and there's a flush draw?

[cjromero]

By "better" straight, I meant to say that just calling gives someone with overcards better odds to play for a straight that would leave you with a split pot.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
By "better" straight, I meant to say that just calling gives someone with overcards better odds to play for a straight that would leave you with a split pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see the point, I was confused for a moment because I was thinking nobody could make a better straight. Now that I think about Of course if somebody had, say, K-10, a jack fell on the turn to counterfit my draw a bit, and I completed the straight with an eight, they'd have a 9-K straight to my 8-Q straight. So it is possible.

On the other hand I don't think it is possible for any overcards to split a straight with me, they could only make a straight while if I missed. Q-J could make split straight with me. Or am I screwing up my board reading again?

--Zetack

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I muck this pre-Flop and don't think it's very close. JTo is trash, even on the Button with 4 limpers.

Brian,

I used to feel the same way but now I know it's very different. This is an easy button limp, even in multiway pots.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe, because you emphasized button in your response, does that mean you feel it wouldn't be a good play from say the Co with a similar set up--4 limpers with the blinds (and now the button) still to act?

--Zetack

[Zetack]

Ok, I don't like a flop raise, and maybe that's wrong but here's my thinking. I'm not wild about a jack or ten as outs so what am I trying to clean up by raising? There are five other players in the pot when it gets to me, with only one having put in a bet. Sure if I raise maybe it increases my chances of winning the pot with a jack or ten, but since I'm primarily (maybe only) looking to play this for a straight I want players in. Imagine the nightmare if I raise, nobody calls two cold and the bettor makes it three to go. Heck if I raise, one person calls the two and the bettor simply calls the raise I'm still not as happy as if I can get 3 or 4 more players to come along for one. In real life I only got one person to come, but there ya go.

Can't clean up any flush draws because they aren't going anywhere.

If the flop were 89, making my J-10 overcards, perhaps I'd like raising better. But I still think a call with the bet directly to my right is better--is that wrong?


Results--Obviously I won with the Nuts, but my opponent showed A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif !!! If he'd raised that pre-flop I never would have been in this pot. Odd to limp with it and then 3 bet the river.

[Joe Tall]

because you emphasized button in your response, does that mean you feel it wouldn't be a good play from say the Co with a similar set up--4 limpers with the blinds (and now the button) still to act?

I emphasized button for a reason. The reason being that you can limp with all sorts of stuff on the button. I would restrict such reverse implied odd type hands to the button.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bdk3clash]

Looks well played on all streets. I'd lean toward just calling the flop bet to not confront the other limpers with multiple flop bets. Turn looks good, and I think you're good on the river. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As to the preflop limp, I doubt that JTo is tremendously profitable, even in this situation, but I suspect it's profitable enough to limp in on this particular hand.

Note that in most positions and situations, JTo remains medium offsuit trash and should be mucked accordingly.