ANOTHER JJ post!! nooooo!

[Surfbullet]

I haven't been faring so well with JJ recently, so I've been reviewing some of my old hands and wanted your guys honest opinions on this one. Please don't hold back.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, Button folds.

River: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+2 checks.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 4.50 BB, between SB and UTG+2.</font>

[cold_cash]

You've got to raise before the flop. There's no telling how this hand would have played out if you had, and not doing so makes it a thousand times harder to play.

I would have at least bet the flop here to try and take the button and maybe salvage something out of it.

[bisonbison]

Surf,

you misplayed this on every street.

[SoCalPat]

BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In case you didn't fully understand what I'm trying to say ...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weak, weak, weak.

Raise PF. Bet the flop, or raise if bet into.

Take a free card on the turn if given the opportunity.

Great guns blazing on the river.

Honestly, I don't understand this play at all. Your flop check, after it's practically been checked around, is especially bad.

Your turn play, in which you fold to the blankiest of blanks, is even worse. What you have, in all likelihood, is people betting/calling their T. You could've raised here and likely still won.

You said don't hold back, so one more comment ...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JJ is a great starting hand. Quit treating it like cheese.

[TBone]

Bison hit it right, as usual.

Raise preflop. Bet the flop. See where it goes from there.

T

[tiltaholic]

Dude. You have to rizzle pre-flizzle.

Or is this something particular about how to play at 2/4?

[Surfbullet]

Thanks everyone,

You are all completely correct - and I got exactly the response i was looking for.

I limped JJ in an effort to get as many ppl in the pot as possible... and also because I have been raising it virtually 100% of the time. I have been going through HEPFAP and misapplied the "treat jacks like a small pair with lots of ppl in the pot PF - set or fold if there are overcards."

Once I limped in pf I was in that "set or fold" mode, wich is pretty uncharacteristic of me given my recent stint at SH.
I then gave up on the turn without really even thinking about it. Ick.

I appreciate the candor - I needed that, as I knew I badly misplayed this..the best way to make sure it won't happen again for me is to come here and get lambasted. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dan

[huxbux]

Not raising preflop was the first of a long list of mistakes. Raising preflop would have probably thinned the field by at least 2 more, maybe gotten it HU which is where I want to be unless there's a string of limpers. SB might be betting his Q low kicker - a hand you would have knocked out with a PFR - or a T - which you can beat. The entire hand was played scared. Your JJ won't ever fare well unless you play it more aggressively.

[bisonbison]

JJ will win more than its fair share against any number of players. You don't want folds.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Your JJ won't ever fare well unless you play it more aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

This was a case of reacting the wrong way - I had been playing Jacks aggressively but losing to that one overcard, or getting outdrawn, etc, to the point where I wasn't sure my aggressive attitude was correct at all.

It's frustrating to me that I still let short-term results get to me like that. Thanks for your input.

Dan

[huxbux]

Well when I play JJ I want either more then 4 callers to pay me if it improves, or less then 4 callers to improve my chances of it holding up.

[bisonbison]

JJ wins 40% of the time against 4 random hands. 5% more often than AKs. Would you fail to raise AKs here?

Not raising based on the voodoo of 4 is not good.

[huxbux]

I'm still learning HE, so I don't have a firm grasp on the numbers. To answer your question, I'm raising with AKs to get paid when I hit and improve, where as with JJ I'm raising to improve my chances of winning the hand unimproved. I was always under the impression that your win % increases with pocket pairs against fewer opponents. Is it better to go for the lower win % with the bigger BB/Won?

[bisonbison]

If you hold AA UTG and you raise, what's the ideal outcome?

[huxbux]

That everyone calls and I win? I'm sure I opened my green mouth a bit too early in my HE career in offering advice when I'd be better off receiving it(in a manner I'm more comfortable with then 20 questions where my complete lack of knowledge is exposed).

[sfer]

Sigh. You were ahead the whole way. Just looking at the flop and turn action it's clear that the pot was taken by, at best, a pair of tens.

[bisonbison]

Don't worry about giving and receiving advice. The best way for you to learn is to put down what you currently believe and have it subjected to the crucible. The forum is helped greatly when people aren't afraid to look dumb.

Ideally, it'd be capped 10 ways, but everyone calling 1 raise is not bad. You lose more pots but win larger pots, and the same rule applies to the big pairs down to about 99 or TT.

I think you're getting your JJ fear of fours from HEPFAP, but you have to remember that the advice in that book (even the loose games section) applies to games that are significantly different from today's micro and small stakes games.

[sfer]

Bison's point is that JJ wins more than it's fair share against any sized field of random hands. That is to say, against n opponents, JJ will win more than 1/n % of the time. So when you raise preflop you are making money with each additional caller putting money in your pot. The goal is to win the most money, not the most pots.

[Surfbullet]

SB showed down 9d9c and took it.

This was one of the worst hands in recent memory for me ( play-wise ), and I posted it to help prevent me from being so focused on the short run - I got so weak here after losing to that one overcard crap kicker all weekend. Hopefully it wont happen again.

Dan

[huxbux]

But the crucible hurts!

Most of my poker knowledge does stems from HEPFAP, and obviously I haven't adjusted it to micro-limit yet. Via this forum I hope to improve, and plan on running out to my local bookstore tomorrow to pick up Ed Miller's new book.

[Transference]

I concur with not being afraid to post your 'advice' even if your not 100%. Even the pros have given advice, then looked back at the hand and changed their mind more than once. Posting to the effect of: "this is how I would play it" gives you the chance to have your play analyzed as well and does nothing worse then get people thinking about alternatives. For the most part everyone is cool about it.

As for the JJ fear, I was dealt KK 6 times in well under 200 hands the other day, 0 for 6. When it came up for the sixth time I cussed profusly, raise preflop, and bet the flop when the ace popped up.

Stay strong brotha! One fine day sie jacks shall be gooot!

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been going through HEPFAP and misapplied the "treat jacks like a small pair with lots of ppl in the pot PF - set or fold if there are overcards."


[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read my copy in a while, but it really says this? That's frigging terrible advice.