AKo - turn question

[MarkD]

Mis-applied turn check or good application?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls,

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (6 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 8 BB, between Hero and SB.</font>

[MarkD]

I thought at least somebody would have thought this was a bad play and called me out on it.

[papawawa]

I would've bet the turn and folded to a raise.

[butters]

I like this play on a less coordinated board. Three broadway cards + a flush draw on the flop = turn bet for me.

[MarkD]

If I bet the turn and get checkraised I am getting 9-1 to draw to the nut full house when its 10.5-1 againt me hitting it. I would have to call a check raise and would still have a fairly tough fold on the river IMO.

[MarkD]

I agree in some ways, but I think this play has less value on a less co-ordinated board. For example, if the board was AK5 rainbow and the 5 paired on the turn I am not very afraid of that card helping the PFR and would bet with confidence that my hand was best. If checkraised I would consider 3-betting.

On the actual board in this hand I think it is less clear.

[Lottery Larry]

I can't tell- depends on your opponent. Did you end up giving him a free card, or was the turn check-raise a strong enough possibility that you saved money?

If you draw to the full house, your implied odds make it pretty reasonable to call a raise if you bet, don't you think?

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't tell- depends on your opponent. Did you end up giving him a free card, or was the turn check-raise a strong enough possibility that you saved money?


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know, this was my second orbit. What I do know is that almost everyone will go for a checkraise on this turn if they have ten.

[ QUOTE ]
If you draw to the full house, your implied odds make it pretty reasonable to call a raise if you bet, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I would but that costs me 2 BB's.

I guess what this boils down to is the how much the free card hurts me vs. how much the calling the checkraise hurts me. They are both fraction of a bet situations but I don't know how to evaluate the expectated value for each situation.

The way I see it is that if I check the turn I think I will often collect 1 BB on the river when I am ahead anyways, but when I am behind checking the turn saves me money as I would likley invest 2BB (on the turn or 1 on the turn and 1 on the river). Also, any hand that is drawing on the turn is going to see the river so checking isn't a "mathematical catastrophe" (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sigh, I still don't know how I feel about this line.

[lil']

I don't see any reason to check the turn. You have top two, and I don't really think the 10 changes much, unless your opponent likes to attack with third pair on the flop against a pre-flop raiser with an ace and king showing.

He could be raising that flop with a lot of things that you are still ahead of.

[MoreWineII]

Bet the turn.

[MarkD]

Overnight and over the course of the day I have been leaning this direction as well, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't simpy being results oriented.

My opponent tabled A7o (I'm at work without the hand history, but I believe they were both black with the 7/images/graemlins/club.gif) and MHIG.

[Lottery Larry]

"what this boils down to is the how much the free card hurts me vs. how much the calling the checkraise hurts me."

Which one costs you a bet, versus which one costs you the pot?

[sthief09]

I don't think you'll be behind often enough to check. I think more often, your opponent will have a Q or J, or a flush draw and you'll give him a free card. even if he has a T, certain passive opponents won't check-raise because they fear your flop play indicates AA or KK. I just don't think the check has any use. what's more, even if you get check-raised, you aren't necessarily behind. I think SB will have only an A or a K more often than he'll have a T in there, for tens-full. for his flop play to line up with a T, I think he'd almost have to have AT or KT. he'd have to be a full blown moron to play the flop like that with JT or QT.

[butters]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in some ways, but I think this play has less value on a less co-ordinated board. For example, if the board was AK5 rainbow and the 5 paired on the turn I am not very afraid of that card helping the PFR and would bet with confidence that my hand was best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what you're saying here. If I bet out with top two on an AK5 flop and am called, I'm definitely trying to checkraise the turn. I doubt my opponent is calling with a 5 and there's a good chance he'll bet an A or K for value on the turn if checked to.

On a more coordinated flop (as in the example), I don't want to risk giving a free card to a straight or flush draw, so I bet out on the turn.

In neither scenario am I doubting I'm best after the turn card.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
In neither scenario am I doubting I'm best after the turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you would be correct. This was my mistake, thinking the Ten probably improved my opponent. I don't know why I thought this but I did.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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I agree in some ways, but I think this play has less value on a less co-ordinated board. For example, if the board was AK5 rainbow and the 5 paired on the turn I am not very afraid of that card helping the PFR and would bet with confidence that my hand was best.


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I don't get what you're saying here. If I bet out with top two on an AK5 flop and am called, I'm definitely trying to checkraise the turn. I doubt my opponent is calling with a 5 and there's a good chance he'll bet an A or K for value on the turn if checked to.


[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstand. What I meant to say was that on a AK5 board I would be much less inclined to believe a second 5 would help my opponent then I was on an AKT board when the secnod ten hit. So, in the AK55 board when my opponent checked the turn I would be with confidence and probably 3 bet if I was check raised. Whereas on the AKTT board, when my opponent checked I checked behind. This was what I was trying to convey.

I think my turn check was wrong though and that you are right and I should bet the turn.