Tough turn decisions $6-$12 at the Borgata

[Mike Gallo]

After almost a 2 month layoff I returned to the Borgata this afternoon to play some poker.

I had two hands where I feel I made a questionable turn decision. I want to see how other members of the forum would play these hands.

Both hands took place at a $6-$12 game. For both hands I considered the villian a decent opponent.

Hand one

Two players limp from early position, a middle position player (Duvel)raises the button calls both, the small blind folds and I defend my big blind with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif The remaining two players toss another $6 into the pot and five of us see the flop.

Flop K /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I lead out. I thought of check raising however I preferred betting in this spot. A lot of times at this table after a raise nobody would bet including the original raiser. One of the limpers called my bet one of the limpers folded,Duvel raised the buttom called both bets cold I called and the first limper folded.

Turn Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Action to me, what course of action should I take.

Hand Two

Utg limped a late position player limped, I raised from the button with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Both blinds folded and both of the original limpers called the raise.

Flop K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Utg bets next player calls I raise they both call.

Turn A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Utg bets into me again, the next player calls what do I do?

[LKJ]

Hand One:
Not sure I'd call the flop. Is there really much of a chance you're not drawing to a 3-outer here? I know, backdoor flush possibility too, but that can't carry much weight. Especially considering that the villain here is raising in the face of two people who have put in one bet, and certainly can't be expecting to take the pot down here. A good, solid player is folding a dominated hand like QQ here in the face of a bet and a call, and if you're giving him credit as a good player...dump it. Your best situation is being up against AA and a straight draw, and having 5 clean outs.
Anyway, the Q on the turn compounds the problem, you could easily be drawing dead to KQ here. I vote check-fold, though I guess one could make the case of betting and folding to a raise. Certainly no reason to throw two more BBs into this pot.

Hand Two:
Fold. You're very likely facing an ace, probably the ace of clubs, and if either player is drawing to clubs, you're now drawing to, again, 5 outs (I have a hard time counting T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or T /images/graemlins/spade.gif here as outs). Save your money.

Anyway, that's my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

[sublime]

Mike-

How you been?

In hand one you consider your opponent to be a good player? So I will assume he sees you as a good player. I would check the turn and see what the action is back to you.

In hand 2 you have another decent opponent, what hand he going to limp with and bet that flop and then bet into you again on the turn?

I think you have a safe laydown here, but you know better than me, Obe' Won /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sublime]

Like now! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[BottlesOf]

Hi Mike, it's awesome that you're back. Even if it's just for one post. But please be more.

Hand 2 seems like a fold. It's not a fun fold, but one I'm comfortable making. The fact that it's the Ace that falls makes me that much more comfortable with the fold.

Hand 1 is a little trickier. I would have considered 3-betting the flop. You may have and rejected it. It really depends on the dynamic you have with this guy. I could see just calling down.

[sthief09]

what kind of read do you have on Duvel? I think that's pretty critical in deciding how to proceed. regardless I think checking is probably right here beause you get to see what the button does after Duvel bets.

hand 2: the stop and go usually implies a hand wanting to see where he's at, or a hand that just improved. either way, I think you're beat, especially if UTG is as passive as he seems. your 3 straight outs will probably be good if you hit, and your 2 kings might be good, giving you 5 probable outs. you're getting 8.75-1, and to draw to 5 outs you need about that. I don't think you're drawing dead, since neither player is likely to play a flush this way. there's also a small chance you're actually ahead. closing the action, I think you can make this call, but it's close. I think the chances that you split if you hit a Q are offset by the chances that you'll win if you make kings and tens.

[AviD]

I should have taken that bet

[sthief09]

I don't know how much value you put into this, but in hand 2 he has a straight draw.

[Garbonzo]

To be taken with mucho grains of salt.

Hand one:

Seems like a good time to check raise the button raiser. Having not, I would lead out on the turn again, PROBABLY call a raise and check call the river depending on what falls.

Hand 2:

Fold.

[Joe Tall]

Hand#1:

What's your read on Duvel? If I'm not check-raising the flop, I'm 3-betting it.

Hand#2:

I don't like the flop line. Call the flop raise the turn. It looks like UTG holds the A /images/graemlins/club.gif and you can fold the turn.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sublime]

I should have taken that bet

Fill us in? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AviD]

Heh, I spoke to Mike just a week or two ago and said he'd be back...he INSISTED he wouldn't be because...and I quote..."I have no interest in poker anymore".

Needless to say I told him he's full of sh*t, and he needled a bet at me that he'd give me 4-1 odds was it (?) on a monthly basis that he wouldn't return.

Here we are...two weeks later...gg I won! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But, knowing Mike knowing me knowing how seriously we'd take a bet (ok, maybe not THAT serious)...I figured Mike would spite me and not play just to win the bet...at least for a month or two.

So you see, this was all my big strategy of N level thought against Mike...I KNEW he would be back and I KNEW by not taking that bet it would open the door to his poker return! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ahhhh I induced his return by folding to his challenge! See Mike you taught me a thing or two! :P

That's my story and I'm stickin by it! Welcome back Mike, just a matter of time bud...just a matter of time! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Now Mike will surely say he "just happened to be in the area" and "was going to swing in just to say hello to some friends" and "really didn't plan on sitting" but "just won a buy-in playing the nickel slots with his wife", so he had some money to burn.

Lies, all lies...he couldn't stay away...he had to FEED that poker addiction (don't we all)...don't let him tell you different, tr00f all tr00f!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

P.S. Nice to drop me a line there Mike, I would have come down to donate some chips on your return! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sublime]

..."I have no interest in poker anymore".

LMAO!

Like that really ever happens /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Jeffage]

On hand 2, I'd prefer to call the flop and then raise the turn if a blank comes. The way you played it, the turn's an easy fold. One of them has the ace or had you beat already. It's the caller inbetween combined with the bettor that's particularly troubling.

Jeff

[Mike Gallo]

Hand one. I folded the turn. I contemplated folding to the flop raise, however that would feel too weak, especially if he held 88 or 10 10. This player liked to raise several limpers with any pair.

On the turn I checked to Duvel and he bet. The button called, I put the button on a straight draw a king a queen any bottom pair with an ace kicker or any wired pair. I put Duvil on a hand that might beat a king. Considering how he liked to raise with any pair, I figured he might have flopped a set.

The river brought a king and Duvel went to war with the button. After 4 raises the button called. Duvil had pocket 5's for a boat and the button flashed a King but did not show his other card. I might have had the button beat, but Duvel had me drawing dead. At the time I felt fortunate I made the fold, however I wondered at the same time if I made the correct fold or I let the results sway my thinking.

Hand Two

I suspected UTG to have AJ or JQ. When the Ace hit the turn I knew he had made his two pair. I put him on A /images/graemlins/club.gif Jx. He bet the button called and I folded.

UTG had exactly A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif. The button did not show.

================================================== ==========

Side notes about the players involved


I named the villian Duvel in the first hand because of a Belgian beer named Duvel, which means the Devil.

This player had a nasty dispostion. He enjoyed check raising and mocking the poorer playing opponents at the table. He took a pretty bad beat with Kings and complained for three orbits about it. Ridiculing the player for calling three cold with an Ace and sticking around to river it, everyone has encountered this type of player. Interestingly he did not play that badly. He played too many hands, however he played them all for raises. He enjoyed raising and reraising with any pair. He capped with 7's and beat a players unimproved AK. Too really compound this play, he raised the river heads up with two overcards on board.

Right after the posted hand, Duvel told me he had hoped I would have check raised him on the turn like I did to the guy next to him. He asked if I had a King and I did not answer. I did not give the standard "Sorry Duvel I do not remember".

Ironically he and I started a conversation right before he left. I think the alcohol led to his crankiness, either that or a fight with his wife /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The villian in hand two, I have played with on several occasions. He will not check raise without a great hand. He does not check raise semi bluff. He will make many semi bluff bets including gut shot straights. If he had the flush he would have check raised me on the flop, or most likely checked the flop called the flop bet and checkraised or bet the turn.

[Mike Gallo]

How you been?

Doing very well thank you.

In hand one you consider your opponent to be a good player?

He played a tricky style. I do not know if I would consider him "good".

In hand 2 you have another decent opponent, what hand he going to limp with and bet that flop and then bet into you again on the turn?

Exactly why I folded. I knew the ace hit him. If he had a flush he would have check raised.

Have you had much tournament success lately?

[Mike Gallo]

Hand Two:Fold. You're very likely facing an ace, probably the ace of clubs, and if either player is drawing to clubs, you're now drawing to, again, 5 outs (I have a hard time counting T or T here as outs). Save your money.

Excellent analysis.

Hand one. Not sure I'd call the flop. Is there really much of a chance you're not drawing to a 3-outer here?

Yes, he could easily have raised with pocket 10's or 9's in an attempt to represent a better King hoping I would fold a worse King. When he bet the turn, I figured I had a drawing dead hand, especially with the button calling.

[sublime]

Have you had much tournament success lately?

A few ITM's, nothing to write home about.

My limit games has improved a little. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope to see you around here more often /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Hand 1 is a little trickier. I would have considered 3-betting the flop. You may have and rejected it. It really depends on the dynamic you have with this guy. I could see just calling down.

I considered that line of play, however I thought by folding I would make the best play.

Hi Mike, it's awesome that you're back. Even if it's just for one post. But please be more.

Thanks for the kind words, I plan on spending more time on the forum now that my life has stabilized a bit.

[Mike Gallo]

what kind of read do you have on Duvel? I think that's pretty critical in deciding how to proceed. regardless I think checking is probably right here beause you get to see what the button does after Duvel bets.

Someone who had the propensity to play like Phil Helmuth's book " Play like the pro's". This player frequently would attempt to isolate with a pocket pair or an Ax suited. He frequently reraised and raised with any suited Ace. He had a wide range of hands that he would raise with.

hand 2: the stop and go usually implies a hand wanting to see where he's at, or a hand that just improved. either way, I think you're beat, especially if UTG is as passive as he seems. your 3 straight outs will probably be good if you hit, and your 2 kings might be good, giving you 5 probable outs. you're getting 8.75-1, and to draw to 5 outs you need about that. I don't think you're drawing dead, since neither player is likely to play a flush this way. there's also a small chance you're actually ahead. closing the action, I think you can make this call, but it's close. I think the chances that you split if you hit a Q are offset by the chances that you'll win if you make kings and tens.

Hand two my opponent made his two pair on the turn. I needed to hit a Queen or perhaps another King on the river.

[Mike Gallo]

On hand 2, I'd prefer to call the flop and then raise the turn if a blank comes. The way you played it, the turn's an easy fold. One of them has the ace or had you beat already. It's the caller inbetween combined with the bettor that's particularly troubling.

I did think about waiting until the turn if a blank hit, however I made a faux paus and raised the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

I don't like the flop line. Call the flop raise the turn. It looks like UTG holds the A and you can fold the turn.

Agreed, see my response to Jeffage.

What's your read on Duvel? If I'm not check-raising the flop, I'm 3-betting it.

See my results.