Tough TT laydown

[JrJordan]

Been at this table for awhile. UTG has a standard raise of $5. Typically follows a raise PF with a half bet or so on the flop. Hasn't shown a hand yet so I can't tell whether he has the goods or not. But by the number of hands he's played, he seems more tight than loose. To the hand...


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed)

MP3 ($48.50)
CO ($48.50)
Button ($38.90)
SB ($40.20)
Hero ($46)
UTG ($157.67)
UTG+1 ($59.15)
MP1 ($78.85)
MP2 ($45.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises to $5</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $5, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls $4.

<font color="blue"> This is UTG's typical raise, unfortunately can't tell what hands he is willing to raise with because there hasn't been a showdown with him. Heads up I might try a reraise to narrow is hand, but with MP in the hand I just call. </font>

Flop: ($15.50) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets $10</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, UTG calls $20, MP2 folds.

<font color="blue"> All undercards with paired 9's. I expecting with the PF raise that no one has the 9, so the bigger question is whether my overpair is good. I check, expecting a half pot bet from UTG, but surprisingly checks through. I'm not initially sure what MP's bet means. I min raise to 20. I feel any raise greater than this and I'm pot committed, therefore I would go all in instead. With the min raise, I feel confident enough that I can fold to a reraise, and push on the turn if they happen to call. I was again worried when UTG cold calls and MP folds. </font>

Turn: ($65.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, Hero folds.

<font color="blue"> The one card I didn't want to see. I assumed the UTG call could mean only a few things. An awkwardly played AA or KK slowplay, AK or AQ waiting for a draw, or two diamonds looking for a flush. UTG seemed sensible enough that he wouldn't call a pot sized bet with just a diamond draw. Lacking the flush draw option, I was losing to any possible UTG holding. I plan to check/fold to any sizable bet on the turn. UTG's $10 bet instead of putting me all in confirms that he's trying to slowplay a big pocket pair and milk me for the rest on the river, so I lay it down. </font>

Final Pot: $75.50

I think with my actions on the flop, my turn decision was correct. My bigger question is to what I should've done before the turn. Should I raise PF? If he calls a raise PF instead of coming over the top, I feel much more confident pushing on this flop. Should I push on the flop instead of going for a minraise? Seems like a perfect case of winning a small pot or losing a big one if I do. Any help appreciated. Thanks.

JrJordan

[Prevaricator]

I don't like min checkraising the flop, as that puts you in an awkward situation if he calls and any AKQJ or diamond hits. I think pushing over the top of him, or just simply folding and waiting for a better spot are better ways to play the hand. Even the preflop call is questionable, because of his raise, there is a very slim profit margin between the odds to hit a set and the implied odds you're getting on his stack. Also, you will just about never get all of his stack if you flop your set but he has AK and misses. I might call with position for the added chance to steal, but that's very hard to do from the big blind.

[LA_Price]

Hey jordan. I was at the table during this hand and actually thought you folded queens. The Ace probably saved you some money since you had TT's. You should've been done with the hand the moment UTG called the min raise. If you're going to play this for it's pair value why not reraise pre-flop otherwise it's just too difficult to know where you're at. Otherwise call and check fold unless you flop a set. With the 50BB stacks you almost become pot committed on the flop so they're not alot of room to find out where you're at. Just my thoughts. Maybe others play this differently

[JrJordan]

Hey LA, might I say nice memory. Didn't realize you're a 2+2er (that could explain the nice PT stats I have on you /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Anyway, I agree with your comment that I may have overplayed it. I agree with the reraise PF if it's heads up. However, it's just too hard to know where I stand with the third player in. I guess I would just have to watch out for JJ if I get smooth callers on the PF raise. Truth be told, that A did save me some money on the turn. I'm not sure whether I would've called or not had it been a rag, but the A certainly made it easier.

[JrJordan]

I dunno, folding TT preflop to a villain's standard raise seems awful weak tight. I think I would lay it down with 88, and maybe with 99. With TT though it certainly has value when you're left with an overpair. I agree my post flop skills on this hand need work, however I still think seeing the flop can be profitable.

[Prevaricator]

Why is 88 or 99 any different than TT? With a raise like that, either he has AK or a big pair.

[JrJordan]

With TT your chances of it being an over pair are much greater. This is especially important when there is a third cold caller involved with this PF. I would feel much more comfortable as a 3rd one in with TT than 88 because of that extra chance. Most likely I would only play 88 for set value. TT certainly should be worth more than that.

[BlueBear]

I believe folding here is in order, with stacks this shallow, there is insufficient implied pot odds to hit your set. There are no other limpers in this hand.

more importantly, if three rags hit the table, say 9 7 2, due to a serious lack of position, it will be very very difficult to play the hand. We are either at best a slight favourite against two overcards, or we are a heavy underdog, close to drawing dead against a better pair. I'll wait for a better oppurtunity to play and invest my whole stack.

[Prevaricator]

It doesnt matter if its an overpair or not, he will have AK or a higher overpair unless he's making a move. Do you think he makes that preflop raise with 99?

[Prevaricator]

I agree.

[RollaJ]

IMHO you could not have played it any better. If you c/r the pf raisor it can be viewed as a move, when you c/r the other guy (especially the minimum raise) it screams I have a 9. now the second you get called by the otherguy you know you are behind. Now on the turn you can either check fold, or bet allin...... do not go for a c/r all-in as it will leave you with too few chips to strong arm your opponent

[JrJordan]

I'm glad I got one person in agreement. Many of you are recommending this as a fold preflop. This just seems way too weak-tight. It's $4 to me on the BB with another PF cold caller already in. Using just the 5-10 rule for playing for a set, its dubious to see the flop for a set, but I am under 10%. This, however, applies for any pocket pair ranging from TT to 22. TT certainly has far greater value when it flops as an overpair. I would prefer to reraise to $12, rather than make a weak fold. If he calls, then I know to be looking for the likes of AK/AQ, maybe JJ as well but the former more likely. If he comes over the top of me then I could easily fold to the most likely KK or AA. At what point would you see the flop? Would you see it for JJ? QQ? Many of you seem content to think he must have AA, KK, or AK. For each of these hands, JJ and QQ play the same as TT, and you can't tell me you'd fold QQ to a 5x BB raise.

[JrJordan]

Few corrections need to be made to your post:
1. There is another limper involved. I doubt he has the 9 on the flop, so I'm confident I have at least him beat.
2. My TT is more than a slight favorite over 2 overcards. Assuming he has 2 overs like AK or AQ, He's drawing to at most 6 outs, probably less because the limper may share an ace with him. If that's the case then I'm a favorite by at least 2:1. If he does have an AA or KK type hand, I feel I'm strong enough to get away from the hand without losing my stack. Unfortunately, the limpers flop bet of $10 put me on the edge of pot committed with a minraise. Still, I think the minraise is better than pushing all in. Most likely I would only be called by a hand that beats me. By c/ring the minimum, I lose the least when I'm beat, and win a fairly large pot when I'm ahead.

[ClimbRock512]

I totally agree with Prevaricator here. You are probably up against AK or an over pair. AK isn't going to pay you off, and you are losing a lot to an overpair. With horrible position, and not good enough odds to hit that set, I toss that junk. I think the same holds for JJ. With QQ, theres more of a chance of having the best hand, for the opponent could hold AQ, JJ, QQ, KQ? AJ?(he sounds better than that).

His call on the flop is sketchy. Could he have AKd and is hoping to see the turn cheaply? He may be afraid of the raise by and overpair(TT-QQ) if he semi-bluff bets it. After you checkraise, he can call because he knows the original bettor will call the min-raise. Hes not getting great odds. Slowplaying an overpair seems odd here, but its entirely possible. You have to dump on the turn, no doubt. I like a dump preflop, and I don't really care for the checkraise on the flop.