5-10 NL on UB

[BeeKay]

Can i get away from this hand, no information about any players.
I have QcQd
Pre-flop:

SFRAN10 folds. boy folds. njm800 calls. brettk
raises to $40. obt folds. guppy80 re-raises to
$140. smalltalkdan folds. njm800 folds. brettk
calls.

Flop (board: 8d 2d 7d):

guppy80 bets $300. brettk goes all-in for $866.
guppy80 goes all-in for $831. brettk is returned $35
(uncalled).

Turn (board: 8d 2d 7d Jc):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 8d 2d 7d Jc 3h):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

brettk shows Qc Qd.
brettk has Qc Qd 8d 7d Jc: a pair of queens.
guppy80 shows Ks Kd.
guppy80 has Ks Kd 8d 7d Jc: a pair of kings.


Hand #1961184-5622 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $1962.
guppy80 wins $1959 with a pair of kings.
-------------------------------------------------------
Seems like i maybe could have layed it down preflop, but on the flop it seems close.

[deacsoft]

You probably can't get away from this hand, but I'd bet most would feel it correct not to just call the reraise preflop. In these cases I find the correct play to usually be one that requires folding or pushing in preflop. Sometimes they just have K-K when you have Q-Q or A-A when you have K-K. I've been busted out in more than a handful of tournaments in this situation. Tough break and nice hand.

[BeeKay]

it hink the call preflop is fine, with more thinking, i think i can fold the flop becuase im only ahead of Jacks and against AK single daimond there drawing at 14 outs and im behind Aces no d and Kings no d, and im drawing virtualy dead vs Aces with a D and Kings with a D

[teddyboy]

Have to agree with deacsoft. Your opponent made an agressive bet preflop and by not reraising him you may have indicated you did not have aces. WOuld be hard to fold once that flopy came as q high flush is pretty good with the additional out of a third q. Nice hand. tough luck. that's poker.

[MrFroggyX]

Hey BeeKay!

I’m only a low limit grinder so take my words with a grain of salt.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif (And QQ is a tricky hand to play)

Preflop:
I think you have two options. Fold or raise.
If you think you still have the best hand then you should re-raise his raise. Otherwise if you fear AA or KK you should fold. You will find better spots to take your opponents stacks /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Flop:
I don't know what to do.. Because I would never put myself in that situation.
But I like that instead off calling his bet you raised him. That’s much better!




And why are you playing NL $5-$10? Are you rich or something?
Because I read this in another post of yours:

[ QUOTE ]
How much money did you guys lose for you to consider yourself a good player. Ive read the books, ive learned from pros, but yet i still am losing. It seems lik
every hand i lose is to a bad beat. However, it keeps on happening and i dont think i can blame it on luck anymore. There has to be a huge flaw in my play for me to keep going bust online. Im just wondering how much you guys lost in the begginning of your days.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you don't care about the money then I suppose you will learn to play winning poker faster against harder competition.
But if you do care about the money.. Step down a few limits.. Always leave your ego at the door before playing poker! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Good luck! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ray Zee]

froggy is right you need to step down some if you want to keep playing. you have no hope in the larger games playing qq so strong. you have to get broke. maybe online in small games you can break players with this hand after they have reraised a caller and a raiser but not in larger games. the only time you will be ahead if they have ace king suited and miss the flop.

[turnipmonster]

listen to ray! when you call the reraise, you are playing for the set only. you want to spike a Q and hope your opponent will back his stack with AA-KK.
--turnipmonster

[deacsoft]

So, do you recomend making the call and trying to flop a set or folding to the reraise?

[ML4L]

Hey BeeKay,

FWIW, that is an absolutely murderous line-up that you were playing against...

As for the hand, I think that the general point by Zee and others is correct (don't play QQ so strongly in the face of a reraise in tougher games). I think that, in some circumstances, a raise can be argued, but you'd have to have some read on the player.

Would you have played the hand this way if the flop weren't all diamonds?

ML4L

[Matt Flynn]

$100 raise with $931 in stack and maybe $100 in the pot pre-raise. 2:1 now and potential for additional 8.3:1 later but you're only 7.5:1 to hit the set, won't get paid off by AK or other non-AA/KK hand unless it has you beat, and can get nailed set-over-set (rare but happens 8% of the time you hit if all outs are clean).

i'd fold given how it was played. but i would not have raised to $40 with that stack size.

matt

[felson]

What would your preflop raise have been?

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd fold given how it was played. but i would not have raised to $40 with that stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you have raised to?

Mike

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, that is an absolutely murderous line-up that you were playing against...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to mention something about that. I haven't played NL or UB in quite a few months now, but that 5/10 game on UB has never been particularly good.

The biggest reason that I switched to playing limit as my bread and butter game was that the NL games larger than 2/4 weren't very good at the sites I had accounts on, and a NL game that isn't very good is NOT worth sitting in. You'd probably be better off taking a step down even if you were a winner in that game--the games one step down are probably much better and don't require nearly so much attention.

scrub

[gomberg]

What do you raise here? Do you just limp in? Please explain. Thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Matt Flynn]

watch your stack sizes.

why let someone force you easily off queens? even if he's got aces, queens still have set equity. with those stacks if you raise to $40 and a tight player pots it, you should fold. so, if you raise to $40 and he raises, he gets the $40 and you screw yourself out of a chance to flop a set and bust a tight player.

limping and raising to $20 are both superior to making it $40 because then two players have to raise before you are forced to fold. one player alone cannot deprive you of your set draw.

look at it another way: suppose you raise to $40 and get called in one spot. flop comes j86 twotone. great you flopped an overpair. now you're going to put 8.5x the pot in with your overpair against a good opponent you can't read well? pretty painful, and with three streets you cannot exercise enough pot control to conserve your stack.

unless you make it to the flop anf flop a set, raising to $40 sucks.

matt

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
a NL game that isn't very good is NOT worth sitting in. You'd probably be better off taking a step down even if you were a winner in that game--the games one step down are probably much better and don't require nearly so much attention.


[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the best advice you'll hear right there. Thats why I stay playing the 100 and 200 games and keep my win rate at rediculous heights. The competiton is abyssmally soft.

FWIW, I have been mixing back in my limit game (5/10 and 10/20) to wonderful results. People in those games wish I would go away.

[bunky9590]

Fold to the reraise, plain and simple. Limping with QQ in a game that tough isn't a bad play. Thats why I hate the tough games. Give me the berry patches all day every day.

The all in was just bizzarre. After a reraise you push? Yeah, the way you played it you should hvae lost 40 bucks.

[ML4L]

Hey Matt,

Is raising more also an option? I definitely understand your point, but our Hero was in the cutoff in a 7-handed game. Wouldn't you raise a limper with a ton of stuff here? And if you want to be able to raise a limper with impunity, doesn't that mean you have to raise hands like QQ to prevent yourself from being played back at?

Again, I see your point, but I can't fathom limping behind a MP open-limper in a 7-handed game...?

Mike

[gomberg]

So in a tough game are you not willing to raise here without a) premium hand (AA or KK) or b)crap hand like a small suited connector for decietfullness, or are you just looking to come in passively to see a good hand on the flop? I'm having a hard time seeing myself just limping in late position w/ QQ - even given the stack sizes. When the guy reraises, it's probably fold time - and that's fine if I lose $40 with QQ vs. KK or AA. Or even $180 or whatever it was just for set value. In this hand, I think at best hero was a coin flip, but most of the time a big dog on that flop - as reraiser has at least AK w/ 1 diamond or a pair greater than QQ if he's reasonable.

[Matt Flynn]

yes, raising more is a better option than raising to $40. you have to lay down if you get reraised, but it better serves your purpose for when you flop an overpair. that's a fundamental difference between big pair play in pl vs in nl: in nl you can raise enough to protect your hand.

what i am saying is with those stack sizes you cannot stand two raises preflop. your best option is to get another stack size or figure out how to read your opponent.

also, in nl when the stacks are not short it is usually better to call a raise with qq than raise with it and be called.

matt

[sdplayerb]

Yep.
He has shown major strength twice now.
You have to know the player very well to think he is making this play with JJ or AK (really the only two hands you can have beat). And at those blinds, AA or KK is more likely given the scenario.