Commerce 10-20 NL hand

[Ulysses]

The 25-50 game just broke and two guys from that game sit down in the 10-20. They both buy to cover the table. These guys aren't folding pre-flop. They limp in a fair amount or open anywhere from $60-120. I've been playing pretty nitty and have been pushed off a number of hands, especially by one of the guys who is very aggro and clearly thinks I'm terrified to get the money in the middle. On to the hand.

Aggro guy above limps UTG. Other 25-50 player limps on the button. I'm in the SB ($2,000) w/ KK. I make it $150. Both guys call.

Flop 5d 6h 7d

I bet $400. Aggro guy calls. He's perfectly capable of calling here w/ any two cards, planning to take the pot away from me on the turn. Other guy folds.

Turn (5d 6h 7d) 6d

$1270 in the pot. I have $1450 left.

What's your plan for the rest of the hand?

[tdomeski]

Do you hold the King of diamonds????

If you are holding the King of diamonds I think it's an automatic check raise all in. . . .Give him a chance to bluff at the pot, if he's got a straight you have a ton of outs. .if he's got the non nut flush you've got a ton of outs. . . .Hell, if he's got 5's full you've got outs. . . .

If you bet out he may just fold. .I think the check raise is the best play because it allows your opponent to make a mistake.

Now. .if you don't have the King of diamonds. .Well. . .Push and pray????

Looking forward to others comments and results.

[Ulysses]

I have red KK.

[AnyutaDva]

There are two things that worry me about your situation in this hand. Firstly your opponent isn't going to be surprised by your hand. If he views you as a timid player, your out of position raise means he is probably putting you on AK, AQ or a big pair. So he knows that barring flush draws this flop probably hasn't helped you any.

Secondly, given the hand he is putting you on why hasn't he raised you on the flop? If he had a draw especially if he has a pair along with it he is probably going to try to bully you off your hand with the knowledge that he has outs if he is behind.

So he is either ahead of you on the flop, or he has called with next to nothing hoping to attack a scare card. If you bet on the turn you only get called if you have walked into a big hand. So I would check on the turn. When he bets on the turn, assuming that he pushes you all in, I'd err on the side of folding. Obviously you are in great shape if has called just to bluff you. But given your out of position raise he knows there is a chance that you have a very big pair, and if he was a good agressive player ( and I am aware that you haven't said whether he was any good or not ) he probably is going to think twice before trying to get any player no matter how timid to put down what could be a pair of bullets.

So I think the chances are he has got his hand on the flop, and I think it is a made hand not a draw. You have quite a few outs against a made straight, but even then you won't be getting your odds. If he has flopped top and bottom pair then the turn has actually compromised his hand, but any other combination of two pair or trips and you are in trouble.

I think it is a horrible situation to be in against that type of player. If I am up against that type of player I want to have baby pairs and suited connector's because I want to be able to raise with hands where I can hit flops that he is going to try and bully me off. I always dread it when I pick up a big pair out of position, precisely because his type of situation often arises.

[AcesKracked]

Knowing what you know about this guy it sounds like he could be holding any 2 cards and my guess would be he has 2 pair or better. But I would have a hard time laying down. I think I check and prepare to fold if he puts me all in or I push in and hope for the best. My casino experience with these type of guys is there is nothing they enjoy better than seeing the flop w/ rags, hoping to hit a monster, and take out AA or KK. So what happend, the suspense is killing me.
AcesKracked

[fsuplayer]

I would do whatever it is I think will put the most money in the middle as you are either way ahead, or have lots of outs if you arent.
I dont like check raising bc you said that aggro guy has already pushed you off a bunch of pots, let him do that. CR'ing may put up red flags in his head and he may check a hand that you are not only ahead of, but one that he may have raised with on the turn.
Bet out a # like $500-900 (which ever looks more like a scared turn bet) and then reraise all in. You have outs to any of his possible holdings (except 55), and I dont plan on laying this down on the turn, so I would rather get the money in on the turn, than have my CR fail and be subject to go through the whole process again on the river.

Hope it worked out.

BTW Why are you in so short? I would imagine that you are better than the other players, why only 100 BB's?

FsuPlayer

[turnipmonster]

you'd much rather see the 7 or 5 paired on the turn, eh?

that's a bad flop for KK, and it's hard to put him on a hand. in this situation, if you're going to play, I think you'll win the hand a lot more often checkraising allin on the turn than pushing and getting called.

the problem is there's not a lot I can put him on that you can beat here, other than any two random cards. you have outs against almost anything, but not very many. I hate saying this because it's not really good analysis, but you check and read him. if he wants you to call, fold, if he's bullying you around then put it in the middle.

the only play I really don't like here is betting out, because I think if you get called/raised you will be behind more often than not, and if you underbet you are committed anyways.

personally I like to pick spots where I have a ton of outs to play back against someone trying to push me off my hand, but you can't always be that selective.

for this hand, I think check anything (raise,fold,call) is ok, I think betting is -EV. personally I lean towards check folding, but sometimes you have to take a stand and play back. hope it worked out!

--turnipmonster

[fsuplayer]

My post was implying that you were planning to play this hand through. If you are unsure of whether to continue then, yes, as Turnip said, check and a read may be the best option. But if you are trying to get the money all in, then underbet reraise might be best in this case.

fsuplayer

[Michael Davis]

I don't play no limit well, but the advice offered by some others sounds incredibly weak. Given your description of the opponent and what he thinks of you, you must be good here a vast majority of the time, and have outs to win when you aren't good. Folding in this situation makes me vomit.

I think you need to take the line that gets the most money in the middle but secures your chances of winning when you have the best hand, as there are still straight draws that your opponent could be holding.

You could check the turn. If your opponent checks, I think this is a disaster, because now you have given him a free card to perhaps hit a garbage draw, or represent hitting a garbage draw with the right card on the river. Also, if he checks behind, I'm liable to think he has the goods, since your signal of weakness on the turn, plus his idea that you are weak, should lead him to make a bluff bet on the turn. If he checks, I'm now scared.

If your opponent really thinks you are a chump, how about making a weak, chump-type scared bet that screams "I have something but I'm afraid you might have me beat?" Of course, these bets often signal monsters, so maybe that's not right either. No limit confuses me.

I think your best move is to check. Your opponent will make a significant bet and you can check-raise all-in to push out a possible straight draw. Again, if your opponent checks the turn, it is time to get scared. I really have no idea what to do on the river if this happens.

Given your description of the opponent, there is no way you can back down with Ks here.

-Michael

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding in this situation makes me vomit.


[/ QUOTE ]

drawing thin on the turn vs. a full makes the rest of us vomit /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I am not saying he has to fold, I am saying he has to make a read. the scariest thing his opponent can do in this situation is check behind.

--turnipmonster

[all luck no skill]

Hi Lucifer,

Based on the way you described these opponents, I feel that this is a standard checkraise all-in situation. If you check here, he is likely to fire a bullet to represent a made flush or something similar.

[adios]

I don't think you can bet anything within reason here and not be pot committed. You're dead against the straight flush cards, dead against quads, 2 or 9 outs against a flush, 2 outs against a full house, 11 outs against a straight, and probably 10 outs against trips. You're winning against 2 pair, over pairs, and 1 pair straight draw combo hands. A key question in my mind is what has your opponent put you on. If he's put you on a big pair why call the flop? It wouldn't seem likely that he would do that without something very competitive. If he thinks you would check high cards on the turn then he may just call to try and take it away from you on the turn. If he had a big pair beat on the flop why not play it there? Given all that I think I'd check here and if your opponent bets I'd get it all in one way or another.

[DrSavage]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet $400. Aggro guy calls. He's perfectly capable of calling here w/ any two cards, planning to take the pot away from me on the turn. Other guy folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If that is true I don't see how anything but c/r all-in on the turn is right. Pushing is definitely bad, other bets don't make much sense and you're not too worried about a free card in case it goes check-check. When you play against aggros you need to take chances like this one IMHO, otherwise they'll run all over you. The only question is if he's really that aggro as you describe him. Every time i see a line like the one i quoted i wonder if it's an actual analysis or self-justification to call a huge bet. But you're wise El Diablo, you wouldn't do that.

[J.A.Sucker]

This is a limper's board, as you know. He also knows this, and may think that weaky-Diablo knows this.

Check-raising all in is probably the best play if you want to find out what he's got, but you may be putting in your money as a large dog. Check-folding to his bet may not bet that bad, either, but my gut tells me to c/r his inevitable turn bet of about 800 that he will fire out, but it's hard for me to say, since I wasn't there.

[Matt Flynn]

gotta go broke sometime. might as well be now. if you have no idea what he has but he's been calling a lot of flop bets then betting when you check to him on the turn, check-raise him. take your time doing it. see if you can get some more information before committing. don't make him think you've got a bigger hand. he's unlikely to lay down anything that beats you, and you want him to call with hands that don't.

also, not to buck convention too much, but he may be on a complete steal or semibluff. sometimes you check-call to let him push on the river.

no shame in being passive with big pairs out of position when the stack sizes are wrong and your opponents are tearing you up with aggressive positional raises. you can limp preflop.

matt

[Garland]

In this spot, I'd try to induce an all-in by the aggressive opponent. If this is an unthinking player (one who doesn't care if you're a fish or a smart player), then I'd make a small bet on the turn (maybe $200 or so) sending a false signal of weakness. Hopefully this will induce him to pounce on you, and you will call an all-in.

If you know the weak bet won't work, perhaps checking will make him bet. I think there's very little risk in giving a free card away here since you're likely way ahead (or way behind!).

Pushing is also an option, but probably the worst here because I would want to get more of his money in the pot, and he's likely to fold any hand you beat.

Garland

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW Why are you in so short? I would imagine that you are better than the other players, why only 100 BB's?


[/ QUOTE ]

Until these guys showed up, the table wasn't playing very deep. When guys I haven't played w/ show up and buy big, I often like to wait a while before deciding what kind of stack to play. In this situation, I felt like if I kept my stack small, I could trap one of these guys and double through quite easily, whereas if I bought more I'd get more respect and they'd play much more craftily against me. So, I figured this was a fine time for a short stack. We did later in the weekend have some GREAT games where we all played $5k+ stacks.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
gotta go broke sometime. might as well be now.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo only went broke one time this weekend when he got 1500 in pre-flop w/ AA v. KK and the bad guy found a King on the river. That was the first hand he played all weekend, maybe ten minutes into the trip! That was so annoying that El Diablo proceeded with a new plan of winning every pot the rest of the weekend.

[ QUOTE ]
no shame in being passive with big pairs out of position when the stack sizes are wrong and your opponents are tearing you up with aggressive positional raises. you can limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, and I was doing some weak limping/check-calling to set up this play until I felt pretty confident about playing these guys. I knew that making it 150 pre-flop would likely get me into a tricky situation, but I was happy to make a tough decision v. this opponent (the other guy was a much tougher player and much harder to read) and if need be, I could back one pair w/ my stack here.

[Ulysses]

A lot of good responses here, thx. See my response to fsuplayer re: why I liked being a shortish stack in this situation. I had created a very weak nitty image and I felt like I might have a great shot at doubling through if this image held up. It's pretty rare that I have that image at these tables, so I figured why not take advantage of it.

On the flop, when he calls, I figure he doesn't have a huge draw - he knows I can lay down a hand and there's a fair amount in the pot, so he'd quite likely go w/ a big semi-bluff right there. So, I really didn't think he had an OESD or a flush draw.

On the turn, I figured that a super-tiny 200ish bet might just look too obvious and he'd either fold or take a very cheap card w/ any kind of draw. Yuck.

I figured a medium-sized bet (500-800) would only get him to lay down a worse hand or put me in w/ a better hand. He knows I'm pretty pot committed at that pot and he'd be able to play it perfectly against me.

I knew a check would risk a free card, but I didn't think that was so much of a worry here. So, I checked. He bet 1000. I pondered for a bit and pushed. He then says "you made a flush, didn't you?" I just laughed and waited. He had me count the raise, which was 450. 3700 in the pot and 450 back to him and he's seriously thinking about folding. Nice. He finally calls and asks me if I want to run it twice. I say "why not?" and that's what we do. First river is a black deuce, second river is a black five. He says "I have absolutely nothing" and I flip over the winner.

Two guys at the table were stunned and commented that they were shocked that I didn't lay down my pair. That was pretty much it for weak-nit El Diablo this session, but it was fun while it lasted.

Talking to this guy in a session the next day - he said he had an Ace and gutshot straight draw, no diamond and was confident that I'd lay down a non-flush hand there. He said calling the 450 made him pretty sick even w/ that pot, as he thought there was a huge chance he might be drawing dead given what he thought of me at the time.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
he probably is going to think twice before trying to get any player no matter how timid to put down what could be a pair of bullets.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the kind of board where you want to be laying down an overpair lots of the time.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is an unthinking player (one who doesn't care if you're a fish or a smart player)

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a thinking aggressive player. El Diablo just has him thinking the wrong thing.

[brick]

Great Post. My dad and I were discussing the hand and are curious why you would agree to run it twice?

thanks. -E

[NotAClue]

The villain's comment, "You made the flush, didn't you" signals that the villain himself doesn't have the flush, nor does he have a draw to the nut flush (if he did, he'd obviously have no problem pushing in that last 450 or so). Given El Diablo's comment that the villain would likely make a strong semibluff on the flop if he had a strong draw, would indicate that the villain has few outs to beat the Hero, and hence running it twice wouldn't be such a danger.

[Ulysses]

Making deals is something not done in most NorCal games. I really didn't know whether I should run it twice or not. I didn't know whether or not I should ask to see his hand or not, but I put him pretty much exactly where he was - some kind of crappy straight draw. He definitely didn't have a 6, a straight, or a big diamond - otherwise he calls instantly.

Knowing this, I felt I had the best hand and the best draw, so I figured running it a couple of times was OK.

I'm really not terribly sure about how to decide what to do in these situations and would love any further comments on how to make the right decisions wrt how many times to run it in various situations. I think the only stuff I've read here was limon's post on running it v. certain drawing thin hands enough times to guarantee a win and the types of players he deals with.

Gift of Gab had an interesting run it or not situation come up - maybe he'll post that hand.

[Michael Davis]

Screw the guys at the table who said you should fold.

Everyone thought you were the bitch and you acted the part so well you got paid.

-Michael

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw the guys at the table who said you should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said I should fold. They were just surprised I didn't.

[coltrane]

I too am fairly unfamiliar on the whole "running it twice" thing, but here's my initial thinking on the matter, correct me if I'm wrong.....if I feel that I'm a favorite to win the hand, I would always want to run it as many times as my opponent wants - this way, I'm almost guaranteeing myself money (because over a large sample size, I'll always win)....if I feel that I'm a dog in the hand, I would NOT want to run it more than once - for the opposite reason as the latter (my odds of getting "lucky" twice or worse than getting lucky once)......if I feel it's a 50-50 hand, it depends on if you're the type of guy who likes ties in hockey, but I would again NOT want to run it more than once because over time, it's a split anyway - I take take the coinflip once and walk away.....

this seems perhaps the opposite of what one might initially think, but hmmm......

[2283]

im assuming you deal out the rest of the board, then deal out another one without shuffling the cards back into the deck.

if this is the case, you shoud NOT want to run it more than once if you are behind, and you SHOULD want to run it more than once if you are ahead.

this is because if you are behind and you hit your out, you have WORSE odds on the next draw, and your odds on the second do not improve enough if you miss the first to compensate.

if you are on a short bankroll, running it more times should decrease your variance so you should always want to do that if that's the case.

anyone see what i mean? has anyone discussed this before and come to a conclusion?

[Garland]

Given that you have such a read (and the very fact that your opponent asked!), I would decline the offer of running it twice. You have to believe your hand is way ahead, and I would put it all on the line to the last card.

That said, if you wanted to avoid major swings, if he offered to run it twice, I would counter with thrice.

Garland

[brick]

I had never given any though to "running it twice" until my dad asked me earlier today. After giving it some more thought and reading a couple of posts, I understand that running it more than once simply brings the outcome more inline with EV of the situation. Be it positive or negative, all that running it multiple times does is reduce the variance.
Might as well run it 46 times!

[Rick Nebiolo]

got into this thread late but my plan against the "very aggressive player who thinks you are terrified" would be to check the turn and call any bet. if he doesn't bet the turn i'd bet small on the river (about $500), either luring a call or getting him to think you are trying to place a bet you can get away from.

if you fold you should be shot, even if it comes two running diamonds with an ace.


~ rick

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are behind and you hit your out, you have WORSE odds on the next draw, and your odds on the second do not improve enough if you miss the first to compensate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you are wrong. The difference between running it twice without replacement and running it twice with replacement is just a tiny bit of variance reduction. It doesn't change the EV at all.

Suppose you have 11/44 outs, and run it twice without replacement. On the second trial, you have a 1/4 chance to have 10/43 outs, and a 3/4 chance to have 11/43 outs. That averages to 10.75/43 outs, 1/4 again.

With replacement, you scoop 1/16=6.25% of the time, and get scooped 9/16=56.25%. You expect to get 1/4 of the pot.

Without replacement, you scoop 5/86=5.81% of the time, and get scooped 48/86=55.81%. You expect to get 1/4 of the pot.

[2283]

all right, how about running it twice with two cards to come?

[Zag]

I started out agreeing with 2283, but I changed my position at the end of the note.

I am with 2283, here. Running it twice (or more) is always a good deal for the one who is ahead. But the reduction in variance might be worth it if you are not too much behind and you have a small bankroll.

Consider if the other player had, say, QQ, for only two outs. If you run it once, then he has 1/22 chance of winning the pot. If you run it twice, he has 1/22 of winning the first half, and then either 2/43 chance for the second (if he lost the first) or only 1/43 for the second half, because one of his outs is now gone. If we run it three times, note that he has zero chance of winning the entire pot!

Run once:
4.55% chance to win all
95.45% chance of nothing

Run twice:
0.21% chance to win it all
8.78% chance to win half
91.01% chance to win nothing

Hmmm. If we go to the extreme, and run it 44 times, then the player will win exactly two of the times, for 4.55% of the total pot. EV(twice) is 0.0021 * P + 0.0878 * 0.5 * P = 0.46 * P. I guess the EV really is the same both ways. So you should agree to run it multiple times any time you want to reduce your variance.

[pzhon]

Your EV does not change no matter how many times you run it, with or without replacement. E(A+B) = E(A)+E(B) whether A and B are independent or not.

[DcifrThs]

you do what i should have done with those aces a year ago!

you make a SMALL seemingly scared bet at the pot (1/3 the pot) and let him move you in!

-Barron

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
you make a SMALL seemingly scared bet at the pot (1/3 the pot) and let him move you in!


[/ QUOTE ]

That may have been a good move if a blankish card comes on the turn. But a weakish-looking bet into such a scary turn card is actually a pretty scary bet.

[1800GAMBLER]

Line up: Guy who loves to bluff.
Most commonly over-used bluff: Turn raise.
Most commonly bluffed on board: This one.
Hand that can stand this action: KK.

It's going in on the turn and i'm not checkraising because he'll bluff raise and if i checkraise he just may realise i'm not scared about getting the money in and drop.

The way i'd get it in is by underbetting the pot by about 3/5ths.

edit: some of the advice in this thread has beeen awful.

edit 2: the suggest of limping preflop makes me feel bad about my game /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you make a SMALL seemingly scared bet at the pot (1/3 the pot) and let him move you in!


[/ QUOTE ]

That may have been a good move if a blankish card comes on the turn. But a weakish-looking bet into such a scary turn card is actually a pretty scary bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

the ace would be a "scary card" the 6 just leaves you with whatever you had on the flop. be it a big pair or AK or AQ or something. if he called the flop thinking of taking it on the turn then his plan should still be in affact b/c what does the 6 change? see what i mean. if he thinks he can take it, to take it he shall attempt, especialy if (to him) it may look like you're weakly betting AK to "protect against draws" giving 4:1 or 3:1 (if you bet 1/2 the pot) and he'd pop you back bigtime...at least thats my plan, and i may be wrong...

-Barron

[Ulysses]

As I responded to Dcifr, I hate the "bet and raise me" bet here. This guy's aggro, not stupid. If I bet into the paired/flushed board, even small, he can lay down a lot of hands. If I were playing a much deeper stack, I like this bet more. But 3/5 pot here puts almost half my stack in. A lot of guys will abandon a bluff at that point. Thus, checking is much more likely to induce a bluff, quite likely one that will pot commit him w/ any piece at all.

[Ulysses]

In a game like this, when a "meek" player bets into a turn card that pairs the board and puts a flush out there, it's a scary bet to even the most aggro of players. You'll just have to trust me on that one.

[DcifrThs]

well then you played it perfectly as the c-r is definately the best line given all info.

-Barron

[Larry]

Check, You let him get a card to cheap at $400 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Diplomat]

When I first read this my instinct was "must checkraise the turn."

Now that I have read the responses, my response is "must checkraise the turn."

-Diplomat

[cero_z]

El Diablo,
This post makes me smile. You used 'em up, baby!

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Two guys at the table were stunned and commented that they were shocked that I didn't lay down my pair. That was pretty much it for weak-nit El Diablo this session, but it was fun while it lasted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good game, didnt hurt that you had a good read too /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ni Han

[ML4L]

Hey Diablo,

Just back from vacation. Read a couple of responses, but not the results. My take:

Check the turn. You don't mind a free card quite so much as had a diamond not come. The 6 also counterfeits a legit hand (75) and has a couple more drawing thin (eg 87). I wouldn't necessarily put EP on a hand containing an 8, though. It would appear to be a good card to raise the flop with, as it's gonna be tough to get paid by a nit if a straightening card does come.

Let me interject that I am about 75% sure that you were UTG in this hand, not SB, which is making it kinda tough for me to write a clear response...

Eh, El Diablo is screwing with my mind. All I can really say is check if you have KK. UTG is probably going to get some, if not all, of my money here. He likely has either very little or a very lot, both of which will bet. I check-raise the turn if the bet is greater than 400 and call if it is less, planning to almost surely call the river.

I can't wait to check the results and see if you were UTG. I bet you were.

ML4L

EDIT: Oops. Guess I was wrong about you being UTG. Well-played, though (in accordance with my advice and that of others... /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of good responses here, thx. See my response to fsuplayer re: why I liked being a shortish stack in this situation. I had created a very weak nitty image and I felt like I might have a great shot at doubling through if this image held up. It's pretty rare that I have that image at these tables, so I figured why not take advantage of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone could have won an even-money bet with me that you were UTG. I didn't know that weak-nitty Diablo existed. Perhaps weak-nitty ML4L is onto something... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Even in his weak-nitty form, El Diablo still plays good.

ML4L

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know that weak-nitty Diablo existed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny weak-nitty story (can't remember if I posted this one already). In a different game, I have $2500-3000. I'm playing kinda normal until a really good player sits down on my right. As soon as he sits down, I start getting T2o every hand. I go about an hour seeing the flop once w/ 55 and folding to a flop bet. I comment to GiftOfGab that I plan to see a river within the next two hours. All this time, player to my right is often raising from CO or Button and I'm folding every time.

Finally, something like 75 minutes into this crap, tough player makes it 120 on the button after two not very good limpers. He'll do this with a lot of hands. I make it 500 from SB. I'll do this with a lot of hands. First limper calls all-in for 400. Second limper tanks for a while and finally folds. Tough player now thinks for a long time and comments about me finally getting the hand I've been waiting for. He counts me down, looks a little pained, and finally folds after a long deliberation. He shows his cards to the neighbors on his right.

Well, this time I actually did have AA, which I flip over. The all-in guy sighs and flips over his cards - AA as well. Other limper gives a sigh of relief and laughs - says he mucked 99 but almost called 'cause he thought he might be best. Tough player mucked KK, a really bad muck against me, but understandable given the situation.

Flop? K92.