Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > General Poker Discussion > News, Views, and Gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-26-2004, 10:49 PM
natedogg natedogg is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 0
Default A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

All this garbage about a new poker world that the pros can't handle.

What a joke. I've seen a lot of noise on RGP and other places about how the new world of poker has passed by the pros. This is often based on one half-assed comment
by a well-known self-congratulatory jackass who stayed in form during an exit interview.

Now there's no doubt the known pros all think very highly of themselves. I'm reminded of a WSOP a few years ago where Annie Duke and Daniel Negreanu were commentating the final table and they kept categorizing each play as "Super Satellite" plays or "pro plays". As far as I could tell, this was pretty much based on whether or not the player making the play was famous or not. The condescension was so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Anyway, there's no doubt that although many pros are a step beyond mere mortals, many are also just part of the subset of really great players who aren't running bad that year.

What this year's World Series and the success of internet poker players tells us is NOT that the game has changed radically and the pros are too dumb to realize it. No, it tells that the media coverage of the pros, and even many pros themselves but certainly not all, had no freaking idea how many excellent players are out there who don't write articles for cardplayer magazine.

These same pundits who think that poker has transformed because of internet players are often the same buffoons who have spent the last year posting over and over about what a stupid lucky fish Chris Moneymaker is.

natedogg
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-27-2004, 12:32 AM
Michael Davis Michael Davis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 613
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

I second. The worship of the so-called "professional" players is disgusting.

There are a whole lot of remarkably good players grinding it out in upper limit ring games. A few of these guys are probably no names still in the WSOP right now. People will undoubtedly bemoan their good fortunes in getting so lucky to make it this far...

-Michael
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-27-2004, 12:55 AM
shaniac shaniac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 168
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

Ditto.

I'd say it's a reasonable bet that 90% or more of the "unknowns" left in the field are known to someone for their ability to play consistently +EV, winning poker.

Go Ben Johnson!

Shane
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-27-2004, 01:00 AM
jayadd jayadd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 193
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

like one of our own GREG.....
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-27-2004, 01:52 AM
benfranklin benfranklin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 155
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a whole lot of remarkably good players grinding it out in upper limit ring games.

[/ QUOTE ]

A quote from a Negreanu article sometime back may be coming back to haunt him:

[ QUOTE ]
I've said all along that the "real" players are in the side games. The true greats are players you'll rarely hear of, and for the most part, that's exactly how they prefer it. -- Daniel Negreanu

[/ QUOTE ]

In their "exit interviews", Negreanu and Duke both said essentially the same thing, that they were out because they ran a bunch of bluffs that didn't work. They strongly implied that the bluffs didn't work because the bluffers were very sophisticated and the bluffees were too ignorant to be bluffed. Another explanation could be that the bluffs didn't work because the "pros" were running the same old tired bluffs they have been using for years, and the new kids on the block were not impressed, having seen all this crap on TV. The bluffees couldn't be reached for comment, because they were still at the table, playing poker.

Negreanu himself wrote an article not long ago about the powerful new teaching tool of taping and watching WSOP and WPT shows on TV, and studying them to learn both general strategy and the tactics and tells of specific players you might face in the future. Another wise observation come back to bite him on the butt??
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-27-2004, 03:32 AM
DcifrThs DcifrThs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 677
Default What do you expect???

Poker isn't like other "professional" sports or games.

the mark of greatness isn't some ordinal ranking or contract dollars or demand for your attention...the mark of greatness is your OWN PERSONAL success.

the media obviously takes what it can get, what is easily sensationalized and can be spoon fed to an "i don't know any better" public.

these concepts lead one to conclude that despite the growth in interest and understanding of poker (as in, i understand what a bluff is), people are for the most part ignorant of what greatness is.

very few players are good let a lone great. danny was right and its a shame that those unknown pros had to even be outted...theyd be happier nobody even knowing they don't know them (at least i would presume so but my presumptions are oftentimes wrong lol- i'm sure some crave fame but most i'd say are likely to be introverts etc. etc.)

-Barron
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-27-2004, 10:27 AM
PokerBabe(aka) PokerBabe(aka) is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 867
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

No, it tells that the media coverage of the pros, and even many pros themselves but certainly not all, had no freaking idea how many excellent players are out there who don't write articles for cardplayer magazine.

Natedogg.....Estimates of the success rate of professional poker players run from 1/2 of 1% to 1%. The fact is that MOST people who try to play professionally FAIL. Even in my own little microcosm of the Vegas dayshift, I have seen 4 or 5 very good players bust out over the last 18 months. These LONG time EXPERIENCED players used to beat the game and no longer found that they could. Did they suddenly "forget" how to play? Surely not. What happened is that they could not beat the "newer contingent" of player who is difficult to read. Because the "newer contingent" I am describing makes so many errors (both before and after the flop, it often requires the pros to pay off more at the river and to put more bets in on other streets. Obviously, this can impact short term results and increase variance until the pros can master the "learning curve" required to play in the "new world".
Additionally, bankroll drawdowns have created problems for previously winning players who can't overcome the variance they are experiencing. Remember, some people actually live off their poker income, so they don't have other sources to fall back on.


Three of my closest friends who are LONG TIME winning pros at 30-60 and higher have had their worst months EVER in the last 18 months. Their drawdrowns are so off the chart that it's not even close to being some lower limit average which can be explained by "normal fluctuations". Just a coincidence you say? No, I think not.

Your comment that there are excellent players who don't write for magazines is certainly correct, but I think you GREATLY overestimate how good these players are and how many of them are out there. Many people forget that the short term luck factor in tournaments is tremendous. You cannot judge a player by one tournament. Also, as you know, live action games play quite diffently than tournaments. Time will surely tell who can succeed, but my money is on the "old line" pros like Daniel and Annie. These are 2 of the best players in the world, and they will crucify these new guys who think they can outplay everyone.

From my experience and that of Vegas pros I know and highly respect, I can tell you that there are players coming into the game who are inexperienced and who are destined to fail. They simply make too many errors, and hyperaggression won't compensate for those errors in the long run.

Oh yes,... like Daniel and Annie say, it's true that you can't bluff a bad player.


LGPG,

Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-27-2004, 10:45 AM
Easy E Easy E is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,449
Default Good points, natedogg and PokerBabe

Oh yes,... like Daniel and Annie say, it's true that you can't bluff a bad player.

Any chance that some of those "bad player calls" were actually good reads by the rookies?

Like you, Babe, I'll wait and see how things flesh out over a year or so before we designate anyone the "new" pro wave.....

However, as natedogg pointed out, I think that some of the well-known B&M pros are crying a little too loudly about "bad players" when their own (reported) play could use some examination.

One thing everyone forgets- what were people saying about Annie, Daniel, Phil (H and L), Gus, etc when they first hit the poker consciousness? Any possibility that some new quality players are starting to come through?

Everyone should quit whining about the "bad players" and focus on playing the poker needed to BEAT the new wave...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-27-2004, 10:53 AM
turnipmonster turnipmonster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 511
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

[ QUOTE ]
What happened is that they could not beat the "newer contingent" of player who is difficult to read. Because the "newer contingent" I am describing makes so many errors (both before and after the flop, it often requires the pros to pay off more at the river and to put more bets in on other streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

while it is true that terrible players are hard to read, very good players are hard to read also. IMO, that's what makes them "very good" as opposed to "ABC".

the internet is a huge factor in this. joe the internet pro plays more hands in a month than most B&M pros get in a year. also, limit games on the net (as a general rule) have a much larger variance and require a much much bigger bankroll to play successfully.

there's a lot to be said for a pro avoiding a high variance game they can't afford to play.

--turnipmonster
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-27-2004, 10:58 AM
eastbay eastbay is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 647
Default Re: A brave new world for poker pros? Yeah right.

[ QUOTE ]

What happened is that they could not beat the "newer contingent" of player who is difficult to read. Because the "newer contingent" I am describing makes so many errors

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like yet another attempt at the old fallacy: "I can't beat these damn low limit fish who suck out on me too much."

Not to mention that people busting out shows that they don't understand how to manage their bankroll. And if that's the case, are they really that great in the first place?

eastbay
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.