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  #1  
Old 03-21-2004, 01:44 PM
adam61 adam61 is offline
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Default Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

Just a quick little bit about myself. I been playing like 4-5 months. Started a couple months on $1/2 tables at party. Then last month I have been doing $10+1 SNG Tournaments at Party, mix of Limit and NL Hold'em. I also play in some of the weekend tournaments if I happen to qualify in a $10+1 satellite.

Well I lost my first $200 like I'm sure most do. Then I did well for a couple months made about $800 mainly from placing 48th in a Friday Special Limit tournament. Then I started to move permanently to tournament play, mainly the single-table tournaments just cause it was more exciting.

I started off well in them and I've just gotten worse and worse. I think I'm semi-tight, passive now. I don't like being that but it seems like everytime I play two-pair or top pair-top kicker aggressively I get booted out of the tournament.

I've read some of the books and tightened up my play but I'm having some trouble on the marginal stuff and my bluffs seem to always get called even when I feel like I have a tight conservative table image.

Some stats from pokertracker, only my last 2000 hands or so...

31% Flops seen(It's more like 28% head to head skewed it a little) 32% won money if flop seen. Raised preflop 10%. Aggression Factor 0.99

And some stats from my last 90 tournaments. These are worse than my first 40 which I didn't track.

Times in money: 31/90
First: 11
Second: 14
Third: 6

Average Finish: 4.55

Net profit is about $100 but due to some ring game losses, and some single-table, multi-table qualifiers that panned into nothing I'm down a good bit. I'm playing about 75% Limit 25% NL right now all SNG $10+1.

What's my best bet, play more Limit, more NL, back to ring games, play more Multi-table? And how can I begin to improve my play, I don't mind practicing and learning but I actually feel I've gotten worse my last 10,000 hands or so. More gunshy now and when I decide to be aggressive I somehow unerringly pick the worst times.

Sorry for being so long winded, but any help is greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2004, 02:09 PM
AleoMagus AleoMagus is offline
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Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 252
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

A few points

I'd switch to primarily NL tourneys. NL is the favorite among good players and there is a reason for that. It offers a good player more opportunities to steal pots and make draws unprofitable for weaker players. NL is maybe more art than science, but if you learn to play it well, you will not regret it

I'd also tighten up. even 25% of flops seen is probably too much. If these are the % you are getting during the first few levels then you are definitely playing too many hands. When you say 'Head to head skewed it a little', are you refering to separate heads up play, or just the final phase of tourneys? I suppose 32% might be ok depending on what the actual % is during earlier stages. Still, if 28% is accurate, it is too much. Every tourney is different, but overall, I suspect most solid players are looking at 15-20%

Now, I am sure many will laugh at me for saying this, but I'd also consider switching sites if I were you. I have been a big party advocate for a long time now, but I think those days are gone. Pokerstars is better for a lot of reasons. First, the structure is a lot better. You start with more chips relative to the blinds and the levels go up more slowly. Second, someday you might want to move up (or even down) and pokerstars is a better site to do this on. You can play $5+.50 tourneys if you start feeling the $10 game is too tough and if you want to move up, you can move to $20+2 before jumping straight to $30+3.

Yeah, you all told me so... I still have a soft spot for party, but I'm doing all my playing at stars now so... That says it all doesn't it.

One other thing. I'm not sure if you study the game, or if your learning curve has been steep lately, but a drop in results is quite common when you are in the midst of learning more about a particular structure/game. Sometimes you will find yourself gatting creative or trying to implement more advanced techniques when the simple ABC poker you used to be playing will work better for now. This is especially true in Limit and for low stakes. Those players cannot be manipulated easily because their game is often not advanced enough to understand the messages you are trying to send them.

Just some thoughts

Brad S
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2004, 02:24 PM
byronkincaid byronkincaid is offline
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Location: Carshalton, UK
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Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

Your post reminds me of myself a few months ago. The thing that helped me the most after i had decided to concentrate on SnGs was realising just how tight you have to play.

Read TPFAP and there are a couple of posts by William on this board which really helped me. The whole foundation of your play has i think got to be based around tight play. It's absolutely fundamental and is the start of becoming a winning player.

What to play is something that i thought about for a long time, limit, no limit, ring or tourney, SNG or multi. In the end i decided to play where i have the most fun and that is single table tourneys for me.

Learning when to bluff comes with experience. I personaly don't bother much until the late stages of the game. Think about when you fold to a raise. What cards would you have to have to call an all in on the bubble. Think about stack sizes. Nobody wants to go out but there comes a stage where you have so few chips that you have to call if you have a half decent hand. There are ocaisionaly times when you can raise and be almost certain that nobodies going to call unless they've got AA.

And there are some pretty clever people on here. I just kind of hang around, read their stuff and hopefully learn from it.

Good Luck

BK
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2004, 03:13 PM
adam61 adam61 is offline
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Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

Hehe showing my inexperience but what's TPFAP?

Also what are good indicators you need to move up or down a level in SNG tournaments?

And lastly are the multi-table tournaments worth spending winnings to get into through 9+1 Multi-Table Sattellites or $24+2 Single-Table satellites or neither?
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  #5  
Old 03-21-2004, 03:29 PM
AleoMagus AleoMagus is offline
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Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 252
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

Tournament poker for Advanced Players
-By David Sklansky

The best tournament poker book on the market.

Click the Books link on this site and you will see. You can also read an excerpt I think.

As for satellites, play whatever you think you have the best chance with. I'd recommend one table satellites for good ring players and players who play a lot of sngs. I'd recommend multi tables for players good at playing multis.

I suppose this has a lot to do with shorthanded play, as most of your stack is built shorthanded in the one table sattelites, whereas in multis you will mostly be at a full table

Regards
Brad S
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  #6  
Old 03-25-2004, 10:00 AM
Ken Morris Ken Morris is offline
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Location: Michigan
Posts: 36
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]

Now, I am sure many will laugh at me for saying this, but I'd also consider switching sites if I were you. I have been a big party advocate for a long time now, but I think those days are gone. Pokerstars is better for a lot of reasons. First, the structure is a lot better. You start with more chips relative to the blinds and the levels go up more slowly. Second, someday you might want to move up (or even down) and pokerstars is a better site to do this on. You can play $5+.50 tourneys if you start feeling the $10 game is too tough and if you want to move up, you can move to $20+2 before jumping straight to $30+3.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly not laughing! I believe this is absolutely right. Stars is a much better sng environment for the patient player. I play mostly $5 and $10 limit SNGs. They are, if nothing else, the most poker for the least risk.

I also agree with the recommended strategy emphasized in this thread; tight, tigheter, tightest. Make the final three, and you've got a little profit and a lot of play for the money. Then, go after them!! Get as aggressive as you want.
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  #7  
Old 03-25-2004, 11:51 AM
DarkKnight DarkKnight is offline
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Posts: 265
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

First, you can't mix stats from SNG, Limit and NL games and get anything meaningful. They all play so differently that you need to avaluate each seperately.

Second, split out the stats from the different tournament stages. For limit SNGs, I break it down as

level 1-3 (early)
level 4+ w/ >5 players(middle)
4,5 players(bubble)
ITM

From what you've written I'd guess you're a bit loose (31% flops seen is way high. My overall figure from Limit SNGs is 23.23%).

What worries me more is your aggression factor.
I can't begin to guess the cause but I'm at 1.88 overall with preflop R% at 12.5%. This indicates to me that you
need to be more aggressive after the flop.

Rather than trying to focus on stats, you need to post
some hands so we can see whats what.

DK
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2004, 02:25 PM
Ken Morris Ken Morris is offline
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Location: Michigan
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Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

[ QUOTE ]

level 1-3 (early)
level 4+ w/ >5 players(middle)
4,5 players(bubble)
ITM


[/ QUOTE ]
DK, I think your breakdown above is excellent. However, the four "games within a game" make it difficult to look at overall stats and get anything meaningful. In addition to some illustrative hands, it might also be useful to have some starting hand guidelines. I'll take a shot at it under this thread, if no ones jumps in ahead of me.
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2004, 02:36 PM
Prickly Pete Prickly Pete is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 670
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

As others have said, your flops seen is high. But, since you mentioned you may have been too passive, perhaps you are limping in when you should be raising (and thus, not seeing a flop sometimes). Just a thought.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2004, 02:58 PM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Posts: 1,493
Default Re: Need some Tips for SNG Tournaments

Hi adam,

[ QUOTE ]
31% Flops seen(It's more like 28% head to head skewed it a little).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is WAY too loose. Most of the people here consider me a very loose-aggressive player, and my $VIP (voluntarily put money in pot) is only 18-22% in the early levels of a SNG. The blinds -- and usually the pots -- are just too small to be stabbing away all the time, and you can fritter away a lot of chips on missed flops. Worse, it's harder to read the players and their hands in a multi-way pot, and you can easily go bust on a second-best hand.

You need to be more patient and wait for the premium hands or premium opportunities.

Cris
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