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  #1  
Old 03-05-2004, 05:32 PM
La Brujita La Brujita is offline
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Default Need a check up: a few hands to review

Just wanted to see what you all think of some of these hands. I will post the hands and then post what I did later. These hands are not super exotic but in a way that is the reason I am posting them if that makes any sense.

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?

Hand 2

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?
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  #2  
Old 03-05-2004, 05:59 PM
cferejohn cferejohn is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

Re-raise. Maybe all-in; maybe to just 1000 (but fully intending to call an all-in). I'd raise to 1000 if I thought there was a chance that UTG might read it as weakness and play back.

[ QUOTE ]
Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. Close. You're ahead of lower pairs that don't take away your straight outs, but you are way behind to overcards (and have a good chance to be way behind to a better jack). Do top three pay at party? If so, I think whether there are another couple short-stacks would have some bearing. I have to imagine that it is close. Does the SB have so many chips that a call and a loss won't hurt him? I'd be more willing to call in this place, since it seems likely he holds a powerful hand of "two cards".

[ QUOTE ]
7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push. You are still vunerable to overcards and now to a heart. The pot is big enough (~600) that taking it down right now would be fine.

I'm guessing you ran into a set. Tough luck, but I just don't think you can get away from this. If you check, and he goes all-in, aren't you going to call? If you check and a ace comes (or a heart, or a spade), then what are you going to do? I'd rather not have to deal with those decisions, so I'm pushing.
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  #3  
Old 03-05-2004, 06:18 PM
foobar foobar is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

Hey There....

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the first important thing to realize on this hand is that even though you're one the bubble and have second stack, your separation from short stacks isn't that great, so it's important to get maximum value for your kings here. For that reason I don't push preflop. So call or bet? For me it depends on my table image, and how the big stack plays when he's in a hand w/ somebody. Regardless though, I probably just call his bet preflop. On a non-threatening flop, I've got a lot of options. I'd check into him if he's likely to take another stab at a steal. Otherwise I'd probably either lead out for a pot sized bet or, or minbet looking for him to come over the top. The upshot of all these strategies is that I'm trying to get all my chips in the pot on any non-Ace board.

[ QUOTE ]

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

What's SB's stack look like? If he has you considerable covered then I figure there's a decent chance he's on a steal and call. Otherwise, I'd think a bit, and probably still call. Likely you're coming in behind, but if you lay down you're down to T450 in the SB. Assuming you don't get a hand there, you've got 3 more hands to push your chips in before blinds get back and finish eating you. The more I thik about this one though, the more I think it depends on the stack sizes at the table, and wether top 4 or top 3 are getting paid. If there's a couple other short stacks left, then it gets easier for me to lay this one down.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?


[/ QUOTE ]

I probably pot it again. Hard to put button on a hand preflop as it's early and he could be calling your 3XBB bet of 90 w/ a wide variety of hands. After he calls your pot bet on the flop, I'm figuring him for the nut flush draw or AT. If he's on AT, you want money in the pot for value...if he's on the draw, you want to charge him to see it. Now what if he comes back over the top when you pot bet the turn? At that point I get a little nervous about 66 or TT for his flopped set, but I probably call anyhow unless I've got a pretty strong read on the guy.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2004, 07:37 PM
ThaSaltCracka ThaSaltCracka is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?

[/ QUOTE ]
what kind of hands does he play? if he is loose agressive, a possible play would be to call, hope no ace falls and let him push for your. If he is agressive with good hands, I would be enlined to call, he could have aces. If he is just agressive period though, especially with a wide array of hands, I would probably push.
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2004, 07:50 PM
cferejohn cferejohn is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of hands does he play? if he is loose agressive, a possible play would be to call, hope no ace falls and let him push for your. If he is agressive with good hands, I would be enlined to call, he could have aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I like a call on the argument that "he could have aces". Unless a third ace flops (or a third king of course), I don't see how you possibly get away from this without losing all your chips anyway. With KK, my primary goal is to get all the chips in preflop. Unless I was somewhere with very deep money (i.e. the first round of the WSOP or WPT championship, I would never even worry about the possibility of being up against AA (well, I might worry about it, but I wouldn't play any differently).
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  #6  
Old 03-05-2004, 08:29 PM
ThaSaltCracka ThaSaltCracka is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

well, I would call only if I think the player is LAG with a lot of hands. Also if you think he is likely to make another bet, maybe even push all in on the flop to make a play at it.
the other reason I said call only is because if he is tight aggresive, he doesn't really specify, the 300 bet could mean he has a high pocket pair.
But I agree with you that with KK's the best play a lot of the time is to get all yout chips in.
maybe some clarification on the type of player would help, especially listing some possible hands he might play in this situation
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  #7  
Old 03-05-2004, 08:30 PM
jedi jedi is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:

4 handed $30 at Paradise. I am in the BB in second chip position with 2000 chips. UTG has 5600, UTG+1 has 1100 and SB has 1300. Blinds are 50-100. Big stack is very very aggressive and open raises to 300. Folded to you holding KK, your move?



[/ QUOTE ]

In the heat of the moment, I'd probably re-raise all-in. Having some time to think about it, I might re-raise to 1000 try to get him to play back at me (or fold, which is fine). Or, just flat call and attempt to either check-raise or min-bet re-raise all in on the flop if an Ace doesn't show up.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

Five handed at Party $30. You are the short stack with 550 chips before posting the BB of 100. Folded to the SB (you have no read) who pushes all in. You hold Jc 9c. Your move?



[/ QUOTE ]
Fold. I can't get him to lay down a hand since he's already committed his chips. I'd rather push in with this hand than call for all my chips with this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3

7 handed at Paradise $30. Blinds are 15-30. You have about 950 chips and hold red queens. You open raise to 90 and the button (who has you covered) flat calls. Flop comes Ts 2s 6h. You bet the pot (195) and are called. Turn is 4h. Your play and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately I don't have a good answer for this one. You don't want to lose all your chips on this one, but you must pay any flush or straight draws to see the last card. The pot is about 600 right now. You have 665 in chips. I say pushing in will only get you called if you're losing. A bet of 100 smells weak and can get you played back at. Bet 250 and be willing to call all in? I dunno. That's why I read these forums.
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  #8  
Old 03-05-2004, 08:45 PM
La Brujita La Brujita is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

Thanks for all your responses. I will post what I did tomorrow, but I think it is very interesting to read what you all have written. I appreciate it.

To give you further information (as requested:

1. Hand one the BS is loose aggressive, basically a maniac. My read is he will raise with any ace, and will most likely call any size reraise I make. If you play at Party you will know the type I am talking about.

2. Party pays out three spots.

3. Hand 2, I was the shortest stack by far. SB had about 1200 chips.
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  #9  
Old 03-05-2004, 08:55 PM
ThaSaltCracka ThaSaltCracka is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]
1. Hand one the BS is loose aggressive, basically a maniac. My read is he will raise with any ace, and will most likely call any size reraise I make. If you play at Party you will know the type I am talking about.


[/ QUOTE ]
perfect, smooth call here, if no ace on flop, check to him watch him make move, go over the top all in.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2004, 08:57 PM
TimTimSalabim TimTimSalabim is offline
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Default Re: Need a check up: a few hands to review

[ QUOTE ]
These hands are not super exotic but in a way that is the reason I am posting them if that makes any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes perfect sense. The critical hands are usually the ones that aren't that 'sexy' on the surface, and you've picked some good ones here. I went back and forth on each, here's my thoughts FWIW:

Hand 1: I think this one is opponent dependent (but isn't everything? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]). You said he was very aggressive, but what type of aggressive? If he's aggressive but is also smart enough to give it up when it's obvious he's beat, I like calling and trapping. Then you should be able to suck more money out of him if an ace doesn't flop. On the other hand, if this is a loose-aggressive who is likely to call your all-in with a wide variety of hands, I like raising all-in.

Edit: Now that I've read your "additional information", I'm definitely raising all-in.

2. Another close one. How soon do blinds go to 100-200? If it's the next orbit, I'm calling. If it's a few orbits away, I might fold and wait for a better spot.

3. The toughest one of the lot. This is a good illustration of why being out of position sucks. I can see valid reasons for checking, betting small, and moving in. Is he trapping you with a set? I tend to think not, because of the two-flush on board, he would probably raise a set. On the other hand, do I want to risk my whole tourney on this read? Hmmm, I'm tempted to check and see what he does. Underbetting the pot is also an option. If he raises you, you can probably safely fold. But I wouldn't fault someone for moving in here either.
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