check/call check/call check/raise the river

[McGahee]

Without reading any responses - I'm sure most people will villify you for generalizing too much, maybe rightfully so. The fact of the matter is though, the river does usually make their hand when they C/R and people make too many crying calls IMO.

i almost always just call it (i accept that its incorrect and a leak of mine), for metagame as much as anything else, although pot size is also very important, ie am i good 1 in X times here? for metagame though, if i see anyone fold to a couple of river checkraises i will be pulling plays on them all session. i actually dont find it happening to me too much though

i think when deciding whether to check it through (and sorry for being so basic here but its how i think about it) is to just give the vil or vils a hand range/s and how much the comparitive mistake will be...

lets say there are 2 fish, and a flush comes on the river.

and lets say the fish are identical and each has a 50% chance of having MP/TPBK or having a flush draw.

that means
a) 1 in 4 times they are both paying you off
b) 1 in 2 times one is checkraising
c) 1 in 4 times both are checkraising

so when you bet with the intention of calling 1 back but not 2:

you win 2 once, lose 2 twice and lose 1 once for an overall ev of -3BB... so it would be better to check it through

of course in game its never this simple and most rivers should be value bet but thats just a basic way of thinking about it.

[cardcounter0]

A very nice analysis. Good post. But I am not questioning value betting the river. I think you do value bet the river. But when a check/caller calling station doesn't just call your value bet, but instead puts in a check/raise, do you call make the crying call?

To me it shows the player has jumped a level in the meta-game. Instead of "hey I have a hand, therefore I bet" he is taking into consideration your actions and knows you are going to bet your hand and can get another bet in by check/raising.

A player thinking at that level can also put you on a hand, TPTK, and will raise if he has that hand beat. Pretty basic, not a river bluffer.

Of course, you can't fold every time a fool thinks he has you beat and pulls a check raise, but I am thinking given your read on how passive the player is, it is a very low percentage of crying calls.

With some players, who I have seen only raise with the absolute nuts, you would never make a crying call. But that is just me. I guess some people would still call if the pot was *really* large.

maybe stick a few examples up, the discussion has been pretty good.

like i said i would probably fold to a river checkraise ~1/10 times but it is probably a leak of mine

[nomadtla]

There are some players I never call. Some I allways call (if I see something like Spota posted happening regularly from them). Then there is the middle range, which I usually divide up as so bassed on my assesment of how they play.

I roll a 6 sided die and if the following # or #'s come up I call.
Straight Up (ABC poker): 1
Deceptive (top quality TAGS and Lags): 1, 2
FPSer's (not a deceptive player but one who seems to at least pay attention and take shots, usually in an obvious manner, a lot of TC's fall here): 1, 2, 3 (as these are the ones I want to get the lesson, and the fish at the table see them as the good ones cause they make fancy plays and are more likely to notice the guy who won't be bullied by them)

These dice rolls are arbitrary when I have no other clue and it's HU. I don't use them offten but I think it randomizes and keeps me away from calling to offten. Though as I said in my earlier post in this thread I offten want to call them down and to my better judgement abandon the dice.
But it's a good idea in theory and works well when I'm not tilting away chips.

[Spota]

This same situation has happened to me several times. (Im sure more but I remember the last two). The last two times I was c\r on the river, on a bluff. (This was at 1\2) I dropped a F-Bomb and clicked the call button expecting to lose. When the chips slid my way I was shocked and made some quick notes on the villan.