Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Internet Gambling > Internet Bonuses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-07-2005, 11:08 PM
DavidC DavidC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 292
Default I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

A few days ago a guy posted, saying that he was up a bit of cash in BJ, and would like to know if he should reduce bet size in order to cash out a win (he was close to clearing a bonus)...

Now, if a guy asked this in the poker forums, he'd be lauged all the way home. They'd tell him that it's all just one big game.

So... is there any real reason that one would adjust their play in blackjack while clearing a bonus? Is there something that I'm not understanding here?

--Dave.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-07-2005, 11:27 PM
Benholio Benholio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 238
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:22 AM
Homer Homer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,909
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding the question.

He's asking if it's silly to reduce your bet size if you find yourself way up on a bonus. For example, say you're clearing a 100/100/4000 with a betsize of $5 and find yourself $200 up halfway through the WR. Should you reduce your bet size to lock in your winnings? No, but a lot of people do it for some reason. If someone suggested dropping down in limits in poker to lock in a win while clearing a bonus, they'd be laughed at. There really is no difference, though. I think that's what the OP was getting at, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:26 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 292
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree... Even with a much larger edge it wouldn't be a good idea.

If possible, I'd make the following prop bet with someone (who wasn't my friend):

We'll flip a coin and I pay you 2:1 on the flips, you start with $10 I start with $1,000,000, the first flip is for $10 and we play double or nothing every time until one of us is out of cash. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However, when it actually comes to clearing these blackjack bonuses, I'm pretty confused...

Like, what is the bankroll that you guys are using?

No one asked this guy what his bankroll was, they only gave him advice on what do to to avoid ruin for THIS BONUS, which isn't really connected to anything.

i.e. if you play 10,000 bonuses out, it shouldn't really matter if you bust on this bonus or not, because there's always next bonus, right?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:27 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 292
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding the question.

He's asking if it's silly to reduce your bet size if you find yourself way up on a bonus. For example, say you're clearing a 100/100/4000 with a betsize of $5 and find yourself $200 up halfway through the WR. Should you reduce your bet size to lock in your winnings? No, but a lot of people do it for some reason. If someone suggested dropping down in limits in poker to lock in a win while clearing a bonus, they'd be laughed at. There really is no difference, though. I think that's what the OP was getting at, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, bud.

That IS what I'm getting at, and I've outlined the reason I think it's silly in my response to the first guy.

However, is what I'm saying right? Like, it looks really weird to me to reduce the wager, but I could be wrong (I don't know a ton about BJ and the bonus agreement structures).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:29 AM
Homer Homer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,909
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding the question.

He's asking if it's silly to reduce your bet size if you find yourself way up on a bonus. For example, say you're clearing a 100/100/4000 with a betsize of $5 and find yourself $200 up halfway through the WR. Should you reduce your bet size to lock in your winnings? No, but a lot of people do it for some reason. If someone suggested dropping down in limits in poker to lock in a win while clearing a bonus, they'd be laughed at. There really is no difference, though. I think that's what the OP was getting at, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, bud.

That IS what I'm getting at, and I've outlined the reason I think it's silly in my response to the first guy.

However, is what I'm saying right? Like, it looks really weird to me to reduce the wager, but I could be wrong (I don't know a ton about BJ and the bonus agreement structures).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're right. There's no reason to reduce your betsize to lock in a profit.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-08-2005, 02:02 AM
DavidC DavidC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 292
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Risk of ruin and bankroll size.

If you had a $1000 bankroll, think it would be a good idea to play with $500 bet size to clear a BJ bonus?

Same can be said for poker. Would you put your entire bankroll on 88 vs your opponent's AK? It is +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding the question.

He's asking if it's silly to reduce your bet size if you find yourself way up on a bonus. For example, say you're clearing a 100/100/4000 with a betsize of $5 and find yourself $200 up halfway through the WR. Should you reduce your bet size to lock in your winnings? No, but a lot of people do it for some reason. If someone suggested dropping down in limits in poker to lock in a win while clearing a bonus, they'd be laughed at. There really is no difference, though. I think that's what the OP was getting at, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, bud.

That IS what I'm getting at, and I've outlined the reason I think it's silly in my response to the first guy.

However, is what I'm saying right? Like, it looks really weird to me to reduce the wager, but I could be wrong (I don't know a ton about BJ and the bonus agreement structures).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're right. There's no reason to reduce your betsize to lock in a profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically, what I was thinking was that it didn't make a difference to your EV over the course of the bonus but that it significantly impacted your hourly EV (negatively).
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-08-2005, 05:26 AM
MadMat MadMat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

LOL

yes I'm a fish when it comes to blackjack whoring ;-)

I'm very interested in bankroll reccomndations for BJ whoring, having done 5 casinos now, I suspect I'm running good, and don't want a downswing to bite me on the backside

So far -

PlanetLuck Deposit $100,Bonus $100 cashout $200
StarLuck Deposit $100,Bonus $100 cashout $73
Casino on net Deposit $200 Bonus $200 Cashout $278
Interpoker Monthly Deposit $100 Bonus $100 cashout $249
Sporting bet Deposit $50 Bonus $100 Cashout $314

I've also learnt that I don't like Video poker!
The rule I've decided to adopt is to never risk more than 10% of my bankroll on a single BJ bonus, or 5% on a higher variance game such as VP or Pontoon, Interested in comments on this plan, especially my ROR, as I'm using the same roll thatI use to play poker with!

Mat
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-08-2005, 11:06 AM
MentalNomad MentalNomad is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 36
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

DavidC, I don't know how much you know about BJ. . . your reasoning is pretty much on target, but you're missing a piece of the picture.

Playing BJ line, you're playing to a disadvantage. The bonus dollars, however, are bigger than the disadvantage. The game, therefore, is to wager only enough dollars to clear the bonus.

If it takes $1000 of action to clear a bonus, and the game rules results in a 1% disadvantage, you expect to lose $10 while clearing the bonus (on average.)

If you wagered $0.10 a hand enough times to make $1000 in action, you are likely to lose somewhere around $10 when all is said and done.

If you wagered $100 per hand 100 times, you still have the same expectged $10 loss. . . but the variance will be so huge that you could tap out a $1000 very, very easily.

When you bust out and cannot complete the bonus, not only do you bust out, but you also don't get the bonus. Busting out is a travesty because you still have time played at a disadvantage.

All that having been said, in terms of time efficiency, the best way to clear bonus is to play the highest bets you can afford. If you had an enormous bankroll, you could just bet $1000 once and be done with it. Your expectation will be the same in the long term, because you'll do it every month, and the time invested will be small. But you would need a CRAZY bankroll to do that.

If you are forced to work within a bankroll limit, you need to size your bets to avoid busting out. Remember, playing is not profitable, and busting out kills all profit potential.

The smaller the bet increment, the more certain your loss rate, and therefore the more likely you are to survive to clear bonus. But, as you say, the smaller the increment, the lower your effective hourly earnings. That's the balancing act.

To maximize growth rate of a bankroll while minimizing the risk of busting out, you might try to use Kelly Criterion betting -- when you play to an advantage of, say, 1%, KC states that it is ideal to bet 1% of your bankroll on each wager. If you have losses, your bet shrinks, avoiding the bustout. If you have wins, your bet increases, taking advantage of the bigger bankroll immediately. The KC maximizes your growth rate.

The trouble is, the BJ online plays to a DISADVANTAGE. The proper amount to bet is not to bet.

The KC calculation doesn't apply well to the bonus, because the bonus is not a wager. It's a guaranteed payout. But you might still try to use the mathematical experience we gain from Kelly Criterion analysis and apply it here.

Say you choose an initial bet size which offers a good balance of $$/hour for your personal preference. . . and make sure you have the bankroll to support it. Say you need to clear the $1000 of action, you have a $200 bankroll. You might start with a $10 bet size, or 5% of bankroll. If you get lucky and get ahead to $300, you then bet $15 per hand. This will speed up your play-through for the bonus, and increases your effective hourly profit. If you are unlucky and the bankroll drops to $100, you will be betting $5. By cutting the bet, you prevent yourself from losing the remainder to an unlucky streak. Of course, you'll have to play a lot more hands at the smaller bet size to clear the bonus, but again, that's a guaranteed payout -- time is the only issue.

Ideally, you would scale the bet in smaller increments. So if you went from $200 to $220, you would move your bet from $10 to $11, or if you dropped to $180, you would bet $9.

The results would be that some sessions would be very short, because you went on a tear, increased your bets, and cleared the bonus quickly. Other sessions would be very long, because you had a crappy start, cut your bet size to a tiny amount, and had to grind it out.

The irony: in the long term, the shorter sessions will balance the longer sessions, and I suspect (no mathematical proof here, but assume a 50/50 game here) that the average amount of time needed will be the same as if you had just kept betting $10!

So why not just bet $10 always? Because you would need a bankroll much bigger than $200 to guarantee you clear the bonus.

The catch here is that the times may not balance. . . because your actual blackjack game plays to a DISADVANTAGE, you will tend to be on the losing (small bet) side, therefore investing more time.

The fastest way to play it through might be to scale your bets such that the max one-hand investment is half the bankroll. . . assume your game allows splitting and doubling after splits. So a single bet can become 4 bets. . . to bet a max of half stake, your stake must be 8 bets. So if you have a $200 stake, you would bet 1/8 of that, or $25. . . very aggressive! You would need to scale your bets carefully.

Also, there may be a minimum below which you cannot scale your bet. If you drop to $8 -- not that unlikely if you're betting that aggressively, can you still scale to $1 bets? If you drop to $4, can you bet $.50? etc. Also, such aggressive bet scaling will lead to a few very quick session (with enormous bets) and some very long ones (grinding out $100 in bets at $1 a pop is no fun.)

Mind you, scaling the bets is, itself, a time sink. . . calcualting the bet and then entering it by clicking little chip stacks takes a while.

So, where was I? I seem to have wandered. Oh, yeah. . . should you decrease your bet size to lock in the win?

No.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:06 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I\'m confused about blackjack bonuses

[ QUOTE ]
If possible, I'd make the following prop bet with someone (who wasn't my friend):

We'll flip a coin and I pay you 2:1 on the flips, you start with $10 I start with $1,000,000, the first flip is for $10 and we play double or nothing every time until one of us is out of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take that. Or, at least, I would take that if you really had a million dollars you'd pay me. I'd only need to win 10 flips in a row to win $600,000, or 11 to win $1,800,000. That's only 1 in 1024 or 2048. In other words, my $10 investment has an EV of +$870.

As a side note, this is why the Martingale system doesn't work. It really doesn't take that long of a streak to get to a huge number.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.