Betting strategy for this somewhat marginal holding

theghost · #1 05-18-2005, 12:05 PM

I am primarily a limit player, so my instinct is to play top pair strongly on a 2-tone flop in order to give steep odds to a draw.

Please comment on the action in this hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

BB (t1100)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t620)
Hero (t1195)
MP1 (t1015)
MP2 (t360)
MP3 (t815)
CO (t600)
Button (t725)
SB (t785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t50, 2 folds, MP3 raises to t100, 1 fold, Button calls t100, 2 folds, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t325) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t500, MP3 raises to t715 (All-In), Button folds, Hero calls t215.

Turn: (t1755) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1755) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1755

jacks321 · #2 05-18-2005, 12:11 PM

I know you wouldn't fold this preflop in a ring game, but that's exactly what you should do in the early stages of an sng in early-ish position. There sort of hands are nothing but trouble early on, as it looks like you found out here. If you really want to play with this hand, I would limp in and try to see the flop as cheaply as possible.

On the flop, I would bet about half the pot, so it still gives the wrong odds to flush draws. If you re-raises you all in at that point, depending on the buy-in and the opponnent, you can make your decision. I would probably let it go - weak tight is not a bad way to go for the first 3 rounds.

Sidekick · #3 05-18-2005, 12:12 PM

Hmmm... really need the buy in amount in order to give any reasonable advice for this type of situation IMO.

The advice for a $10 SnG would be very different from a $50 SnG.

jacks321 · #4 05-18-2005, 12:14 PM

True, I was putting my two cents in assuming 11 or 22.

theghost · #5 05-18-2005, 12:17 PM

10+1

Nottom · #6 05-18-2005, 12:17 PM

Fold preflop.

As a limit player myself, I struggled with hands like this when I first started playing SNGs as well. But in limit you might lose a few bets, in NL you can easily lose your stack with dominated hands like KQ. Early on in a SNG its not worth the risk. As the blinds get bigger you will have to run with KQ and worse, but there is no reason to early on.

The key to the first few rounds is basically to survive and be ready to play when the blinds get big. By splashing around early you lose valuable chips which represent important folding equity later on.

bluefeet · #7 05-18-2005, 12:19 PM

Howdy sir,

I'm FOLDing KQo in any early/middle position for this very reason. Raising to steal blinds shorthanded is another thing. Assuming I missed clicked 'riase', I'm not calling the reraise from behind.

You are now out of position with TP2K...if MP3 has AA, KK, AQ you're toast.

No clean way to get out of this jam. Assuming I was in this spot, I would pray MP3 did not have one of the above, and bet substantially on the flop - but not so much that you are committed (just pot maybe?).

Given that you have put yourself in the situation, I really don't see hanging on to your last T200 and folding. Hope he's bluffing and get ready to start a new game.

Future: Fold KQo from UTG/MP early stages, if you miss-click, don't call a raise. If you hit TP bet only enough to give you a way out on the reraise.

Sidekick · #8 05-18-2005, 12:30 PM

Nottom's advice is good sound SnG strategy and I fully agree with it at the $10 level.

However, I will offer this. I don't mind a limp with KQo here. But you have to be willing to fold this hand to ANY type of raise preflop. It is just too weak and too easily dominated in the early going.

Given the $10 level it wouldn't surprise me if you ran into someone playing a suited connector and pushing all their chips in with an OESD. At the $10s, people can and WILL frequently call with nothing but draws for all their chips (happens at the $20s as well).

On a board like that even with top pair with the possible flush and straight draws you are just a coin flip against the draws and quite possibly dominated or even behind someone being 'tricky' with AA or KK here.

If you are going to play this hand, then limp. If no one raises behind you, then bet 1/2 the pot on this type of flop. You have given the draws incorrect odds, you haven't risked much of your stack and if someone comes over the top of you it isn't hard to let this hand go knowing you could easily be dominated or a coin flip against the draws.

Avoiding coin flips early in SnGs is very good for your ROI. You will almost never win a SnG in the first 3 rounds, but you can certainly lose one then.

Hope this helps.

theghost · #9 05-18-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if MP3 has AA, KK, AQ you're toast.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or QQ.

I agree with the pot sized bet strategy (or even 1/2 the pot if it were heads up). 500 is too much. Pot committed I was for another 215, basically knew I was beat. (For the record, it didn't bust me, and I finished this game ITM).

So where are you guys drawing the line from EP/MP? Am I limping KQs?

theghost · #10 05-18-2005, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to play this hand, then limp. If no one raises behind you, then bet 1/2 the pot on this type of flop. You have given the draws incorrect odds, you haven't risked much of your stack and if someone comes over the top of you it isn't hard to let this hand go knowing you could easily be dominated or a coin flip against the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]
Part of my logic is that there are 2 other players in this hand. If I bet 1/2 the pot, and one of them calls, then the second will have odds to call on a flush draw (4:1). This is why I am with a pot sized bet in this scenario. Thoughts?

[ QUOTE ]
Avoiding coin flips early in SnGs is very good for your ROI. You will almost never win a SnG in the first 3 rounds, but you can certainly lose one then.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will remember this. As a limit player I am used to investing in thin +EV, not good for a tournament situation.