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  #1  
Old 08-05-2004, 09:46 AM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

Ok, I'm not sure if you guys have a lot of experience playing Fabsoul. Don't get me wrong, he is (sometimes) a very good player, and he has a very good metagame - he plays like a super-maniac from time to time, and then sits back and reaps the benefits by letting others overplay their hands against him.

Anyway, one day he was in "Crazy Fabsoul" mode, and we were ending up in pot after pot. We were playing 3-6, and I'd won a $1400 pot off of him on a paired board where I called him down with a straight and he had been bluffing the whole way. This put him a bit on "tilt" and he really started to go after me. Any pot I was in, he would raise, and any time I raised, he would re-raise. If I re-raised him, he would re-raise me back. Basically any flop that came, and he would bet the pot.

Now, the strategy I used in this situation was simple - I would tighten up and try to catch him with aces or other premium hands. However, this day aces just weren't coming. So what I thought was "I want to play good hands against him for a reraise," so I started raising hands like 789T for value, knowing that he would reraise, and we would be putting in a large chunk of our stacks where I had the "best" of it. The problem with this strategy, however, was that I couldn't hit enough flops! Time after time, he would reraise, I would call, and the flop would come T high. Then he bets the pot and I have 9TJQ -- What should I do there? I kept reluctantly folding -- heck, my tens might have been boss, but I didn't have the guts to put in $600 bucks on that bet, particularly since he had been getting lucky in some pots and now had a pretty big stack. Ultimately, during this "Crazy Fabrice" period, he probably won a good $3-400 off of me from reraise-bet-folds alone.

Anyway, I told a pretty poker-saavy friend of mine about this situation, and he said I should have just grabbed my balls and re-reraised before the flop with marginal all-in hands, like 789T and TJQQ, knowing that he would probably be playing Q972, etc -- but even I was a bit risk averse to do that.

I think this shows how difficult it can be to deal with aggression.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 08-05-2004, 03:59 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

Your friends advice sucks. Why try to get pot committed preflop when all the hands are going to be running close? You may as well both flip coins.

In general, as you well know, I think you are playing too loose for the game. This situation really illustrates my point. If you are the better player, why keep on gambling in smaller and smaller % edge situations, when you know that a bigger edge will come along. You either end uo in marginal flop situations, as per your previous posts, or end up in situations like this when someone is more prepared to gamble than you. P10ker is another of this type, who has 100% more gamble than even the crazies on Stars. Although he is a different class. FWIW I would play tighter, and look to play in position and let him bet his money off. Also, imho, Fabsoul mostly sucks at the PLO game.

gl

Dave
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  #3  
Old 08-05-2004, 04:44 PM
Johnsears Johnsears is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

im strongly of the position that on weaker tables, looser preflop is better.

However in this situation I would say to tighten up unless you can get in vs a smaller raise with only fabsoul or fabsoul and 1 other guy in the pot with those hands.

Otherwise, sit and wait for huge hands, and if you don't get any, too bad sometimes thats how it goes.
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  #4  
Old 08-05-2004, 05:00 PM
sherbert sherbert is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

Yes Pete, this is sort of frustrating. One question - why do you find it frustrating? You must know that there will be spells when the cards and/or the flops run dry.

Having been in this situation live and online I now tend to take the approach of always folding preflop unless I have a nice hand (I think T987 is a very nice hand, btw, but lacks showdown strength) and then hoping to trap with a big flop for my hand.

It is normal that there will be spells when this strategy does not work. No strategy will always work. One alternative is that suggested by your friend to start gambling it up even more preflop. But that is only going to end up with much bigger variance and often very small edges to you. As Dave said, why bother?

The other is to go into check call mode when you catch a bit of the flop, say the top pair in the example you mentioned and hope to draw out to 2-pair by the river. Of course, this is flawed and very high risk as well.

Wait for a good flop and then take all his stack is the best deal.

HTH
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2004, 05:10 PM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

I see no reason to pass up small edge situations while waiting for large-edge situations to come along. Particularly when the former plays such a causal role in creating the latter.
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  #6  
Old 08-05-2004, 06:50 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

I guess it depends on what you call a small edge. Is any edge an edge? Say you are 52-48...is that worth putting your whole stack in? The way the Stars game plays at 5-10 is that unless you have a big stack, if it is going in, it goes in. You could easily lose a fistful of these crooked coin flips, finding yourself 4-6k down. Which you cant get back easily because of the buyin limit. Also, because of the random-ish quality of your foes hands, you may think you are a small favourite against his suspected hand, only to find you are the small dog, if not a big one.

In a limited buyin game its almost impossible to out-loose a very loose player, unless you're happy finding yourself 6-8k down, but only able still to pull up that pesky 1k

gl

dd
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  #7  
Old 08-05-2004, 07:09 PM
sherbert sherbert is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason to pass up small edge situations while waiting for large-edge situations to come along. Particularly when the former plays such a causal role in creating the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. But the problem is that preflop - depending on your position vs. FabS. - hands as you know run closer. If you take it down to trying to get it all in PF with a pair of tens, you stand to lose big time. Check out a Poker Calculator or Twodimes sim of where a pair of tens gets you in PLO vs two or three random opponents. You lose! (Or win barely at all).

The other issue is utility. Would you play a gambling game where you have a 2% edge and when you win you only get say $20 but when you lose, you lose $200. Overtime you will be ahead, but the variance requires an enormous bankroll. What is the benefit to you of this scenario?

And you also face the problem of being at a nine-handed table. What happens when you try and get it all in against Fabs with your pair of tens and random sidecards when somebody else has the Aces or Ks. They'll be licking their lips. You will be the fish now.

Also, how are small edges a causal factor in big edges?

Edges come from two factors, as far as I can see. 1. Having better cards preflop.

2. Being able to outplay the OPs.

If the cards you hold don't give you an edge, you are nullifying any ability you have to outplay someone on and after the flop.

I'm not sure I agree with Dave either that one of the problems you face is the limitations of the Stars buy in.

In RL, you would still be going uphill if you were down a couple of buy ins and hoped to get it all back in one session. Won't happen - well, rarely.

Cheers.
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  #8  
Old 08-05-2004, 08:05 PM
Big Dave D Big Dave D is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

"
I'm not sure I agree with Dave either that one of the problems you face is the limitations of the Stars buy in.

In RL, you would still be going uphill if you were down a couple of buy ins and hoped to get it all back in one session. Won't happen - well, rarely"

Sorry sherb, this is just flat out wrong. Having a monster stack is a huge advantage for a skilled player. This is such a factor that at the Vic, and other cash games, people buy in for many many times the minimum. Its not unusual to see 1000-2000 blind sit downs. This isnt to say that you are gambling to get even, just that if you get the situation, you now have the ammo to exploit it. Also, the game gets much more complex when the stacks are big, so if you are a good player, this is again in your advantage.

Put another way, picture the example where Pete looses 5 coin tosses against Fabsoul before he gets his big edge. At best he wins a buyin back and is only 4 down.

In real life he could potentially shoot into profit just on that one hand. This is also not taking into account that if he had sat down with a monster stack, he probably wouldnt have lost as much prior to the big hand situation either.

gl

dd
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  #9  
Old 08-05-2004, 08:48 PM
Ulysses Ulysses is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

[ QUOTE ]
Which you cant get back easily because of the buyin limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a key point to consider regarding the best strategy against players like this in the online big bet games. This is also why I really hate capped buy-ins.
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  #10  
Old 08-05-2004, 08:58 PM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default Re: How to defend against a Crazy Fabsoul situation

If I could I would always buy in for more than the biggest stack who I think is worse than me, but that's pretty standard I guess.
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