2 Pretty Simple Unrelated Beginner's Questions

[sthief09]

I've long wanted to get into other games (aside from LHE), and I've dabbled in them, but I think limit O/8 is the transition that makes the most sense. So I've started reading (Zee's book and SS2) and playing 4 tables of 2/4 and 3/6 (usually 6-max because there are more of those, and they help me lean to play postflop better). 4 tables is fine for O/8 right? consider that I can play 6 6-max LHE tables.

ok, so 2 questions.
1. I'm finding it natural to raise a lot preflop, which I understand is not something you should do much in O/8 because most hands won't have much of an edge. So in order to help me figure out what hands to raise and when, I need to better understand what good multiway hands are and what hands I want in a small pot. also, if possible it would be cool if someone could compare some hands to LHE hands, like AA2sx = AKs because it holds up well multiway, or AKQJ = 76s because you need to hit a good flop, or something like that, but that's an odd request.

so my monster hands like AA2sx, should I be limping with them up front, trying to repop? what's my pot equity with my big hands generally?

now I'm assuming the big hands play well in multiway pots because you can be selective. AAxx or KKQJ type hands I want to narrow it down with, right? KQJT is a nice multiway hand since you usually flop big or fold, yes? how about something like A345. does it depend purely on suitedness?

something I don't quite understand, is that none of the books really stressed suitedness. I'd imagine the difference between suited and unsuited hands is huge because we're trying to make the nuts and scoop pots. would I prefer an A3 suited combo or an A2 unsuited one?


2. I hate asking this question, but I feel I have to considering I'm so new to the game. what types of numbers should I be looking at. can someone direct me to, or send me a screenshot of a good player's stats? I haven't gotten PT Omaha yet, but I intend to later today, and I just want to make sure I'm in the right ballpark.


thanks a lot for the help. I'm really excited to learn to play this game. a lot of things, like hand reading and utilizing position, are intuitive to me, so I think I have potential to quickly becmoe a pretty good player.

also, gergery, I've been reading through your site and it's a great resource, so thank you for that

and lastly, does anyone have a list of links I can look through?

[kitaristi0]

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also, gergery, I've been reading through your site and it's a great resource, so thank you for that

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His site is without a doubt the best resource for O8 anywhere (possible excluding Zee's book for high limit games). I think he has some PTO numbers on his site somewhere, i could be wrong though.

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4 tables is fine for O/8 right?

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I'm also a beginning player like yourself and I can't see playing 4 tables anytime in the near future. i'm gonna start at 1 and then maybe add a second, but if multitabling is your thing then do whatever works for you.

[sthief09]

just from playing LHE, I'm used to playing 4 tables, no matter what the game is. I can read the board and am playing tight enough that it's not too much of a concern for me. I think I just need to see more hands. also, I'd get bored playing 2 or 3 tables

[TGoldman]

Welcome to O/8, I've read many of your posts in the SSHE forum. You asked a lot of broard questions. I'll ramble on and cover a few of them. Others will probably do a better job than me. 4 tables is fine for O/8 as long as you're able to keep up with the action. It will take a little bit of time to adjust to properly reading the board with your hand. An experienced Hold'em multitabler should be able to pick it up soon enough.

A few months ago I switched over from exclusively limit Hold'em to exclusively Omaha/8 and PL Omaha/8. As a textbook unimaginative Hold'em TAG, one of my biggest adjustments I had to make was ramping down the post-flop aggression. Flopping bottom set or top-pair pair is a hand I would want to play very fast in Hold'em. Proceed with caution in Omaha/8. Even top set might to best to play cautiously if there's a low or low-draw on the board. In Omaha/8, the concept of trying to "protect your hand" as you would in Hold'em oftentimes results in chip spewing. Overcalling in order to get more dead money into the pot is often the best way to play a hand.

Here are a few of my general tips (Taken from a previous post)...

1) Take some time geting used to receiving 1/4 vs. 1/2 vs. 3/4 vs. scooping the pot and how much you win in each instance. Due to the split pot nature of the game, you can actually lose money in O8 when you win less than 1/2 of the pot.

2) Stop thinking about situations in terms of made hands vs. drawing hands. This is really an arbitrary distinction that Hold'em players tend to make. Remember in Hold'em, JTs is actually a favorite to win the hand against 55 on a 289 board when the 89 is our suit. Think in terms of pot equity and make twodimes.net your friend.

3) Good starting hand selection is the foundation to winning low-limit O8. This is true in all forms of poker, but especially so in loose Omaha/8 games.

4) As a corollary to #3, draw to the nuts from the flop onward. Drawing to a flush when the board has paired is generally -EV (Especially so on a low oriented board). i.e., you don't have 9 full flush outs when you hold the nut flush draw as some of those outs will also pair the board. Discounting those outs isn't as big a deal in Hold'em, but in Omaha, expect to see the nut high and the nut low at showdown.

5) In general the Hold'em concept of "raising to protect your hand" is not effective. For example, in limit Hold'em if you hold top-pair, no matter how much you raise you aren't going to be able to get someone to fold the nut-flush draw. The same is true in Omaha/8, as you aren't going to be able to fold the nut low draw, nut flush draws, wrap-around straight draws, top full-house draws, etc. As a Hold'em player, I had to re-learn how to play a hand more passively.

6) Have fun! As a Hold'em player, I still get a kick out of reciting my hand on the flop... "I have the nut-low draw, with top-pair, a backdoor nut flush draw, and an inside straight draw." It's fun to flop such a diverse holding.

[benfranklin]

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I'm finding it natural to raise a lot preflop, which I understand is not something you should do much in O/8 because most hands won't have much of an edge.

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Keep in mind that there is essentially no such thing as a made hand preflop in O/8. Every hand, no matter how good, is a drawing hand. Think of that in terms of HE: how often do you raise preflop in HE with a good drawing hand, like suited connectors?

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KQJT is a nice multiway hand since you usually flop big or fold, yes? how about something like A345.

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Four cards 10 or higher (no trips) or 4 wheel cards (5 or lower) are no-brainers to see the flop in an unraised pot. I would not raise with either preflop. Some would.

I play 4 high cards as pretty much fit or fold on the flop. You have no chance at low, so with a low flop, you are going to struggle to win half the pot. Even if I don't improve on the flop, if at least 2 high cards (9/higher) flop, I bet to try to drive out backdoor low draws.

Four wheel cards is a strong drawing hand, especially with an ace. A suited ace is even stronger, obviously. If you catch any part of the flop, it is usually worth going to the end unless the pot is being jammed.

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none of the books really stressed suitedness.

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Flushes are critical in O/8. In low limit games, if there are 3 of a suit on the board, you can be fairly certain someone has a flush, especially in a multiway pot. If 2 of a suit flop, there is at least one opponent who is going to the river chasing his flush. I never checked the math, but one writer said that in a 9-handed game, on average 7 players have 2 of a suit preflop.

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playing 4 tables of 2/4 and 3/6 (usually 6-max because there are more of those, and they help me lean to play postflop better).

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Playing 4 tables is up to you, but I would recommend that a new player initially concentrate on fewer games to really learn how opponents play and how hands play out. Full table vs 6-max is to some extent a matter of personal opinion, but I prefer to avoid 6-max in O/8. One reason is that there is a lot more dead money in a full table low limit game. As to the postflop play, O/8 is primarily a game of hand evaluation. Preflop is much more important here than in HE. Postflop is much more important in HE. Once you learn the game, postflop play at low limit is auto-pilot.

[donger]

Read cappelletti's book, too. This book cemented my understanding of O/8 in so many ways. It's kind of the SSH of O/8 to Zee's HPFAP.

[sthief09]

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Keep in mind that there is essentially no such thing as a made hand preflop in O/8. Every hand, no matter how good, is a drawing hand. Think of that in terms of HE: how often do you raise preflop in HE with a good drawing hand, like suited connectors?

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more often than you probably think. position has tangible value, and if I have a hand that (1) is going to win a lot, and (2) going to win a lot of money on the big streets (eg QJo will win its fair share but when you make it to the turna nd river a lot fo the time you'll be the one being charged, but a hand like JTs will win its fair share but often if there's money being put in on the turn and river, it's them being charged), then I raise.

so I'm wondering if I do this in O8. now I'd understand if a hand like KQJT not suited is one where you want to slip in cheap even after a bunch of limpers but if I'm double suited and will win lots of pots, don't I want to pump the pot? or is that just needless variance with little to no upside EV-wise

another question: how often do they "check to the raiser?" if they do, then raising with big cards with position might be nice, if it buys you a free card with AKQJ on a T82, then I think it would be worth it. the times you make your hand, there will usually be no low and your preflop raise will have bought you the entire pot


thanks for the advice. posts like these help me a ton

[Ironman]

In the games I play (2/4 half kill) there is a lot of checking to the raiser.

I've found that my best play comes from "counter-punching" rather than being the aggressor. Trapping other players when I have 3/4 of a pot or that Ace or Duece on the river kills the other player...now that makes me happy.

Dave

[gergery]

Tom and Ben give great advice.

Two of the big reasons you raise preflop in HE are that 1) you can be a giant favorite over someone else (ie. JJ and they call with 88), and 2) most of the time everyone has nothing, so betting can often get them to fold. Neither of those reasons apply in O8.

One way to think about HE vs. O8 hands is to pretend that no one can be dealt AA-QQ. So no matter what hand you are dealt, someone else can be fairly close in pre-flop equity. And no matter what you’re dealt, you’ll need some luck on the flop (either you hitting or them missing) to have a good hand.

Instead of playing 4 tables, I’d play fewer tables and use the time to run the just completed hands you see/play in thru twodimes. Guess how much equity you/they had at each street and see how close you can get. At least til you get a better sense of how things translate from HE.

In holdem, you get a flop and think, “cool, I have TPTK or a made straight”. But in Omaha, on every flop you need to think, “cool, I am drawing to XXX”. Sometimes XXX is for blanks to hit for your opponents, sometimes it’s for your cards to hit. And if you want to see lots of cards then get money in.

Thanks for the feedback!

-greg

[TGoldman]

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now I'd understand if a hand like KQJT not suited is one where you want to slip in cheap even after a bunch of limpers but if I'm double suited and will win lots of pots, don't I want to pump the pot? or is that just needless variance with little to no upside EV-wise

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Buzz has provided some tremendous insight in past posts on the strength of high only hands.

High Hands 1
High Hands 2
High Hands 3

The general concensus is that high only hands need to be very strong and should be played similar to a drawing hand such as 76s in Hold'em. You'll want to limp in and see a cheap flop hoping to hit a favorable flop. Your equity edge/deficit with these hands pre-flop is quite small, so in late position after handful of limpers raising probably isn't +EV or -EV much, but it will increase your variance a bunch. Raising in LP after some limpers may have additional secondary benefits to your Shania and table image, especially if players notice that you otherwise only raise in that position with low cards. Tom