Lost and raising

[Vehn]

$15/$30. Loose aggressive open limps in EP. I decide is a good hand and limp in MP. 2 loose passives limp behind, the button limps, the small blind calls, the big blind, a tight aggressive type, checks and only 7 see a flop of



The SB bets, the BB raises, EP folds, I 3-bet, its folded to the SB who shrugs and folds. The BB 4-bets and I cap it.

Turn:



The BB checks and I check.

River:



The BB bets and I call. I think I played this like crap but I'm not sure how.

edit: fixed

[astroglide]

not sure how? you capped the flop 3 ways with top pair, no ace, and no diamond redraw. what happened to the big blind on the turn and river?

[Vehn]

OK what do you do here when you get 4-bet on the flop? Call, pull down your pants, bend over, and fold on the turn? Sorry I don't play that way in big pots with a good hand.

[Clarkmeister]

Depending on how many hands I'd been involved in recently, I'd tend to raise preflop against the 3 blinds (when a LAG limps in EP, its a blind), especially since there are loose passives behind me. I really don't want to ensure I am out of position the whole hand by letting those clowns smell a big pot and limp in behind me. They are more than welcome to call 2 bets, but they don't get position on me for one.

Postflop is trickier and more opponent dependant. My first instinct is to play the flop as you did, with the intention of betting the turn for a free showdown while mucking to a raise. Bluff induction has zero value here, so I'd rather put in my one BB on the turn than the river. OTOH, if BB just calls my turn bet, I sure hate to not bet the river, lol. Its tough when you are up against a probable goofy two pair and aren't sure how many outs you have or which outs you have. Also, I'm sure your image can cause people to overplay something like JT here.

So I'm thinking the 5 bet on the flop is OK if he's not the kind who has to have a set to 4 bet. Then plan on betting both turn and river and folding to another raise anywhere along the line. Changing plans and checking behind on the river depending on your read is a viable backup plan.

Now if he fires into you on the turn or river, it gets even dicier and *real* player specific.

[astroglide]

wow, sorry to intrude on your thread. i assumed because you posted it in a public forum you were soliciting comments.

now that i know better, "you played it perfectly."

[DanZ]

I think you played it great. The river call is debatable, but he could have been on a huge draw (which probably just got there...). he could also have JdXd. Seems like 2 pair is the most likely hand.

The only reason to 5 bet the flop was to check behind on the turn. This is good, becuase you could easily get check-raise, and you have 3-many outs against 2 pair. Giving a free card is a non-issue, as your hand is dubious, and he's paid a fortune to see the end anyway - he is going to.

Dan Z.

[astroglide]

okay i'm coming back in [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

played it great? bb is tight/aggressive, and it's unlikely he would be pumping a draw unless it's a BIG one (e.g. ajd or 35d), and even that would be silly because he would want to lock in as many customers as possible on the flop.

so he 3bet, got 4bet, and capped it. this does not even insure him a free card on the turn. he spent 2.5 big bets to possibly see the river, and he has no idea where he is in the hand. for 3 big bets he can:

1 - actually have a chance to win the hand by making him fold. how many people fold to a 5bet after 4betting, or fold the turn for 1 bet? raise/reraise action on the flop says 'please call me'

2 - know almost definitively if he's beaten

3 - have a great chance of showing down for exactly 3 bets if he's not badly beaten

all this by cold calling on the flop and raising the turn. if the bb 3bets he's almost veritably beaten badly - a set, ajd, 2 pair, etc - and he can fold with a clear conscience. if the bb calls, the river has an extreme chance of being checked to him in which case he can check it down unless a non-diamond king drops. raising the turn actually gives the bb the decision to fold, which he has not actually been presented with yet.

i don't describe people as tight/aggressive types if they raise draws short-ways with people to act behind them on flops like this. i don't think he's tight aggressive if this was just a flush or straight draw.

[elysium]

hi vehn
raise pre-flop.

[Vehn]

Don't get snippy. Of course I welcome your comments, but "you played it like s--- but I'm not saying why" doesn't help anyone. Anyways I have to disagree with your later analysis [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]. With 3 players behind me 2 of which are loose passives I feel I have make it 3 bets on the flop and get them out and protect the pot. Coldcalling here invites them in and there's 2 overcards I don't want to see on the turn. Also there's a good chance of getting the SB to fold as well. I agree that I still don't know where I am but when I get 4-bet on the flop I have to make a choice. Since the J on the flop was not the diamond I just thought there was a good enough chance he had a hand like JdXd which a lot of people around here would go nuts with on the flop and I had to showdown, and I wanted to do it as cheap as possible while protecting my hand if its good as best as I can. As far as the turn, well, I dunno, I just thought "well I've been given the chance to take a free card now, might as well use it". I guess I just thought that if I was checkraised I would not be happy (but could likely fold) or worse, get called and then bet into on the river.

I think my preflop play sucked too but the game was in one of those "limpy" phases for a bit. I shoulda just folded preflop and saved myself the trouble. Especially after the BB showed me