KK out of position (Party 10/20)

[FourKing Hell]

I have about 2200. Enemy has a lot more and is a solid winner. (no stats yet, harddrive with database crashed)

I'm in the big blind with KK. Folded to enemy, who raises to 55. Seems to be his standard open, although I can't say for sure that I've never seen him raise more. I make it 150 and he calls.

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Pot 310

No spade in my hand. I bet 310, he calls.

Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Pot 930

Check, check

River 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, he bets 900, I fold

I am not 100% positive, but he doesn't seem the type of guy to call a pot-sized bet with a draw. That why I checked the turn. Basically, I was done after the flop. I guess I did give him odds to call the reraise with a pocket, and that's what I'm putting him on now that he bet the river. Either that or a bluff - he's a good player.

That is why I hate the small open-raise by the way. If he had opened for 80, I could make it 240-320 and then not bet the flop, keeping the pot smaller and also having a better read on him. Calling around 200 more to win 2300 is a lot less attractive. Now, I felt like I had to bet the flop, but since I had reraised I had to put him on a better hand now that he called.

I considered flatcalling, but I decided that I didn't want to have to face 3 possible pot-sized bets with one pair out of position. Had there been several limpers and he made it like 150, the option to slowplay becomes more attractive to me. (I know what you're going to say, limpers, want a heads up pot, bla bla bla.. but íf one of them called I'd probably lead the flop and know I can fold to a raise)

I feel I made the correct play on the river, but I also invited him to bet after checking twice. On the other hand, I wasn't eager to throw money into the pot on the turn at all. I was hoping to see his cards for maybe 2, 300 on the river.

What would your plan be? Bet 300 on the turn? On the river? Or just suck it up and check-fold after the flop?

[ActionJeff]

I dont think you can just surrender because he called you on the flop. If you have some sort of a read on his play I would check the turn and check the river, expecting to call a bluff or value bet by AQ or something. But normally, you do not know the player well enough to pull off this kind of play. Generally, I think you would want to make a value/information bet on the turn or river, and then if you get raised you are probably folding. I think the way you played this hand is way too weak, and kind of reflects what to me seems like an ideology that is too conservative. Your bet size is so big that it would knock out a lot of hands that you might want to call, and maybe would call for a bet of 200-280. If you make a big bet and shut down every time you get called that you don't have a monster, it seems like you are playing in a way where a lot of value is just leaking away...

Just the thoughts of another 10/20 NL player

[FourKing Hell]

Thanks for the reply.

99% of the time I make a bet on the flop, I bet the pot. The way I see it, if a flop bet takes it down it doesn't really matter how big it is. In your experience for instance, do you often fold to a pot-sized bet where you would have called 2/3? I believe no, but this is not a rhetorical question, I'm curious what others think about it.

If I get called, some of the time I will be bluffing and I'll give it up. In that case, I will lose an extra 1/3 pot. I usually fire a second barrel if the flop was draw-heavy and the turn bricks. In that case, I lose 4/3 extra flop pots if I pot it, or 6/9 if I bet 2/3 (Betting less risks not folding the draws). All relative to the pot size on the flop, comparing pot bets to 2/3-pot bets.

But if my second barrel isn't a bluff and I got a big hand, the pot on the river will be much larger if I pot it instead of betting 2/3 on the flop and turn. The amount of money I lose extra by potting it when I don't have a good hand, I will win back when I do, and in addition the pot on the river will be larger. This couters the effect that most of the bets won't get called.

I realize that this view is too optimistic. Stacks may run out, and raises can escalate the pot size so that all the money goes in earlier, and a bigger pot on the river won't matter.

In general, I like to bet big, hand or not. My bluffs will be more expensive - giving myself a worse price, but they are also more intimidating to my opponents, who also get worse odds. So when somebody does call, I tend to give them credit, especially with no draws out. In this particular hand, against this particular opponent, I didn't think he was drawing so the effect is the same. I also didn't think he'd call a reraise with AQ. In the end, thát's why I didn't fire a blocking bet on the river, I guess.

Maybe that's another area of my game that is weak. See, I tend to respect reraises. Unless I've seen somebody make loose raises, I always fold AK. Pockets, including kings, I only call if I think I have odds to go for the set. In a full ring game, and a lot of 6-max games as well, I see very few reraises made with hands other than KK or AA. I see reraises getting called with amazingly crappy hands, such as AQ or even KQ, but I tend to put them on AA or KK, MAYBE AK/QQ-JJ, and seldom have I been wrong. I tell myself that if the range is bigger, AA and KK can still make up for a larger part of the reraises than just their share in the number of possible combinations.

As I've said before on another topic, I realize that this strategy is exploitable, but when I reraise, I tend to have a good hand. Unless I've been convinced otherwise, I won't put my opponents on AQ when a Q comes and they call. In this particular hand, I'd be less surprised to see QQ. Oftentimes they'll turn over a surprisingly shitty hand on the river - that they didn't bet - so I'll keep making these reraises, trying to get the amount close to 1/8 of my stack. I'll either take it down, which is not so bad given that they would otherwise have odds to draw, or I can be confident that I can play the hand perfectly 'bad', going all in when I'm beat and checking when I'm ahead, and still show a long-term profit.
Unless, of course, they were slowplaying a big pair themselves..

Enough rambling for now. Time to sleep.

[kagame]

Classic from the archives dealing with underbetting the pot courtesy Ray Zee:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/hi..._msg.html#2740

you newbies owe me

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Classic from the archives dealing with underbetting the pot courtesy Ray Zee:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/hi..._msg.html#2740

you newbies owe me

[/ QUOTE ]


shhhhhh

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[kagame]

notice i didnt post the entire list of archives goodies

im generous not insane ;-)