ATs on the button: postflop play

TheNoodleMan · #1 12-03-2005, 05:24 PM

No reads. What do you guys think of this line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

CO (t375)
Hero (t1445)
SB (t1605)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t3295)
UTG+1 (t1485)
MP1 (t2355)
MP2 (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets t120, MP1 calls t120, Hero calls t120, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t510) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t180, UTG calls t180, MP1 folds.

River: (t870) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t870

splashpot · #2 12-03-2005, 05:46 PM

Raise the flop.

#3 12-03-2005, 05:56 PM

I raise the flop to at least 480.

bluefeet · #4 12-03-2005, 05:59 PM

raising the flop is an option - but...

it's hard to adequately represent a hand that either won't feel they have the odds to out-improve (on this draw flop). HU, i'd be more inclined to give it a try.

not to mention the cost of finding yourself in a reraise situation.

here, i take the cheapest path to showdown, knowing full well we might be done an a 'scary' turn card/action (despite having had, or still having TPTK)

what is cheapest? certainly not raising the flop. short of a over/committing raise, you will likely get a caller (or two). you now have a turn pot completely unmanagable, possibly facing a number of scary cards. i like calling the flop.

leading the turn again? on the surface it looks a bit unwarranted - facing the check-check. but this is a classic case of pot control in the other respect...decreasing the likelihood of facing a river bluff, accepting the check-check.

by not leading the turn, you face a few situations on the river

- calling/folding to a very sizable lead (perhaps a bluff, perhaps not)
- calling a modest value bet (w/ or w/o the winning hand)
- getting it free as well

because we didn't (rightfully so, IMO) raise the flop, it's more likely one of the first two will ring true. where having faced no resistance to this point, UTG may stab/value/block again...or worse (pricing a fold from us).

assuming that we will be in a position to accept either of the two latter scenarios, i'd prefer to spend the worse case here on the turn (as you did). this is our point in time that we can decide to be done with the hand. folding to a raise, perhaps not calling an aggressive river lead (understanding that we will often get the check-check though).

all of this much easier deep-stacked on stars of course.

nh IMO.

bigt439 · #5 12-03-2005, 06:25 PM

Bluefeet is right about his flop raise IMO. You're getting called and you won't know where you are. It'll make the hand so hard to play afterwards. I call the flop and lead out this safe turn. But I do it for more. You'll get checked to on the river almost always when you're ahead and you can take the cheap showdown. But I charge the draws while I can.

TheNoodleMan · #6 12-03-2005, 06:33 PM

I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

#7 12-03-2005, 06:38 PM

Does anyone raise PF?

TheNoodleMan · #8 12-03-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone raise PF?

[/ QUOTE ]
I sure as hell don't.

bluefeet · #9 12-03-2005, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

bigt439 · #10 12-03-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the turn bet should have been bigger to charge the draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree in principal. however, we can't disregard the check-raise scenario entirely. on the flip side, we do increase the number of times we take it down here. i'm not sure how much more...1/2 pot i guess might fill both requirements. you aren't too far off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. We can fold comfortably to a c/r.