Checking flop to protect hand on the turn

jnoody · #1 04-10-2005, 12:50 PM

Villian is loose, VP$IP = 60+, not sure of aggression.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Villian checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (7 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Villian bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises...

I am checking this flop hoping for a safe turn card. Does that seem like a good play? I didn't expect anyone to raise behind me. How is that play?

What if someone to my right had bet the flop? Raise? Still wait for turn? What type of pot odds do I want to be giving so many opponents here?

Thanks.

Yako · #2 04-10-2005, 01:15 PM

IF someone to your right bets, it might be a good idea to wait until the turn to raise, but I'm not even sure... So many cards are scary. A, K, Q, a heart, a 7, and there's so many people in the pot... I think you have to raise the flop if the bettor is close to your right (1-2 seats away).

However, if everyone checks to you, you HAVE to bet. Infinite odds is never good. At least give the other players a chance to fold their gutshots and their one overcard hands.

Ajax410 · #3 04-10-2005, 01:25 PM

Your play is correct...if you're holding 77 and the flop is 236. And even then it's a stretch. The fact is, you're the pre-flop raiser, you should be playing this flop aggressively no matter what happens. By checking the flop, you're giving the guy who called with 34s the opportunity to hit 2-pair on the turn, which is never a good thing. You need to make him pay to beat you - not just sit there and watch the cards hit him.

If someone to your right bets into you, I suggest raising, because there are a lot of cards (TQKA, and heart) which are pretty scary for you. You want to limit the field, not give all your opponents a free look at the turn.

Alex

Redd · #4 04-10-2005, 01:27 PM

Because the pot is large, you'd be fine taking it down immediately. So you want to be giving the worst pot odds possible. As Yako said, if you check the flop everyone's getting x:0, or inifinity:1 odds to draw to their hands. While betting the flop still gives everyone pretty good odds (~15:1ish), that's much better than inifinity:1.

The way it played, I would bet out or I'd raise if doing so forced any other player to face 2 bets cold.

Redd · #5 04-10-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your play is correct...if you're holding 77 and the flop is 236.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it better to check here? I've been betting out in these spots too and I think I need to learn the distinction. I've in fact been more enthusiastic about betting with 77; since there's fewer friendly turn cards, I've been putting more pressure on the flop in an attempt to fold people.

TBone · #6 04-10-2005, 01:36 PM

Anyone that caught any piece of the flop is going to have the pot odds to call a bet on the flop. But...there is almost enough in the pot that anyone that has a pair has the odds to call a turn bet, provided the flop isn't bet! Even someone with just a pair of 3's or T's may have the odds to call a turn bet since there are 7 people in the pot and you're likely going to get at least 2 - 3 callers on any turn bet.

Because there are so many people in this pot and the pot is already giving people such great odds, I'd rather bet and hope people lay their cards down. If the pot was smaller, or if there were just a few people in the pot on the flop, then I think checking would be a better move.

T

imported_Reaction · #7 04-10-2005, 01:40 PM

You were the only PF raiser. You have no reason to suspect that you do not have the best hand here.

[ QUOTE ]

if everyone checks to you, you HAVE to bet. Infinite odds is never good. At least give the other players a chance to fold their gutshots and their one overcard hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pot is so big it would be hard to protect your hand with a rise on the flop(I might still raise it if it came form a person 1 or 2 postions to my right because I was the PF raiser but this would depend on the table).

I like the turn raise with the blank.

TBone · #8 04-10-2005, 01:41 PM

It's better to check there because everyone has the pot odds to call your flop bet due to the size of the pot on the flop. However, you're hoping a non-dangerous card comes on the turn, you can bet/raise and then people don't have the pot odds to call your turn bet. In this situation, people are mathematically correct to fold to your turn bet/raise since the pot is no longer laying the odds. If you were to bet the flop and the turn, there would be more money in the pot for people to have the odds to now call your turn bet.

T

Ajax410 · #9 04-10-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it better to check here? I've been betting out in these spots too and I think I need to learn the distinction. I've in fact been more enthusiastic about betting with 77; since there's fewer friendly turn cards, I've been putting more pressure on the flop in an attempt to fold people.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it's better to often check in these situations is because, if someone DOES call your flop bet (which is very likely), there are no really good cards that could come on the turn. Ultimately, you're better off waiting until the turn to make sure that your baby pocket pair is okay.

Alex

Redd · #10 04-10-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's better to check there because everyone has the pot odds to call your flop bet due to the size of the pot on the flop. However, you're hoping a non-dangerous card comes on the turn, you can bet/raise and then people don't have the pot odds to call your turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in the 77 situation there are fewer (if any) safe turn cards than with JJ. So even if they're getting decent odds, we need to give people the chance to fold as soon as possible. I'm thinking about the 'Two Overpair Hands' section in SSHE, where Ed advocates waiting until the turn to raise with AA but not TT (iirc?), partially due to the greater number of scary turn cards with TT.