A theoretical question on proper turn play

ChipLeader · #1 08-15-2005, 06:33 AM

While this post has a hand as an example, it is the concepts and theories that are open to debate.

Blinds 75/150
Hand: KQo
Preflop: You open for 150 from MP, all fold to BB who cold calls.
Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

He checks, you bet to 250 hoping to steal- he calls and you suspect he has a T but obviously there are other hands he could have. You also consider PPs of any size, 22-JJ or even a hand like 9Js or 79s.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

He checks again. You have two choices
1.) Check here, knowing you will call any reasonable bet on the river. This will allow you to call for an amount you would have value bet on the turn without risk of being raised at any point in the hand.

2.) Bet here, folding to a check/raise but making him pay for any possible draw.

I like checking because it allows you to gain the same value you hope to obtain with a turn bet. A check on the turn will often induce a bluff which you call off, sometimes he’ll value bet a hand like 99/JJ here and you’ll still get that same value, and on the times when he has a T or 88 you got to see the hand down (and give yourself a chance for another K on the river).

I dislike checking because he may make a bet I can’t call on the river just because I showed weakness on the turn. Also, I am giving him a free card that could bust me if he has a PP that finds a set or a straight draw.

Obviously the more draws, the more likely you would be to bet and the fewer the draws the better I think it would be to check. However, on a hand like this I question the “correct play”.

A_Junglen · #2 08-15-2005, 07:21 AM

Stack sizes please.

ChipLeader · #3 08-15-2005, 07:35 AM

I was passed the editing time, so i put it here
Blinds- 25/50

ChipLeader · #4 08-15-2005, 07:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stack sizes please.

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldnt matter unless you or villian is shortstacked enough where a bet commits. In that case, you either bet or check/fold and therefore is not relevant to discussion.

Assume you have stacks where both plays are options, thats kind of the point to the post.

#5 08-15-2005, 08:08 AM

Are just soliciting opinions of the posters in this board juat to compare it to the contradicting analyses between Greenstein and Sklansky on this specific hand?

ChipLeader · #6 08-15-2005, 08:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are just soliciting opinions of the posters in this board juat to compare it to the contradicting analyses between Greenstein and Sklansky on this specific hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I take notes on all books i read and had just gotten to this portion of Greenstein's. At first i thought it was a great play and I had been making a mistake with how i tend to play the hand, but then thought about it and posted my thoughts.

What/where does Sklanksy say about this?

fnurt · #7 08-15-2005, 11:23 AM

I check with the intention of calling the river. This is a fairly standard play with top pair when the board is not draw-heavy.

In most cases he's drawing to 2 or 3 outs. It's unlikely that he has the OESD, although it's certainly possible. I would take the risk and check behind.

bruce · #8 08-15-2005, 12:01 PM

Who cares! It's completely irrelevant to the question.

Bruce

bruce · #9 08-15-2005, 12:06 PM

I must be getting old b/c I don't remember what Greenstein
suggested he would do. I would probably check the turn most
of the time. If I am checkraised I am in a quandry. There
are not that many draws out there. Yea, you might allow someone to get there by not betting, but I'll take my chances.
If villian has a Ten I would expect him to make a small river bet to price you in. He would also play this way with
a small King. If you bet the turn you might lose his action
with a small King so you get it back on the river. I don't
think I would open limp with KQ to begin with either.

Bruce

hurlyburly · #10 08-15-2005, 12:24 PM

This is a good spot to keep the pot small, imo. If I were OOP I'd make a small continuation bet here, but with position I prefer the free card on the flop.

250 into a 325 pot isn't really a continuation bet, and the K on the turn is more likely to trap you in the hand when he has a T, plus the pot has increased to the point where a reasonable turn bet is pretty hefty (600-1k) to try to take it down there.

So with this line I think a turn check is best.