Can't understand why I don't do well online (long)

[bernie]

I think your efforts would be better spent in the strategy forums to make sure you have no 'major leaks' in your game. Just saying you 'think' you don't isn't really good enough. Make damn sure your game is as good as you'd like to think it is.

I looked through your past posts, I didn't see one post that was on a strategy forum. Kinda makes one wonder.

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So I tried adjusting my play especially when there were more than one player at the table that I had spent a considerable amount of time playing against in the past. I have played quite a bit in live games...and although I may not be the best I feel that I play decently and do not think that I have any major leaks in my game.


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Why are you adjusting to this person? Just because he's played with you abit? It's been a long, long time since i've seen a live 3-6 or 4-8 game that one needs to adjust to. Especially if you describe them like this:

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I always find it amusing to see a .5/1 game where the average number of players to the flop is 2 to 3...whereas in a local live 4/8 game I am accustom to seeing 5 to 6 players per flop.


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Why adjust when you are getting action? I play against many of the same players in my main live game over and over. I rarely have to adjust to them if at all. In general, they play the same way regardless of what they think of my play.

It's not hard to be one of the best player in a live 3-6 or 4-8 game. (though 3-6 the rake sucks) If you're not, then I'd concentrate more on becoming confident in being one of the best at your table than worrying about the legitimacy of online cardrooms.

btw...just because you may be the best player on the table, doesn't necesarily mean you're still beating the game. You could be the best of the table and still not be playing well enough to beat the rake.

b

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I don't know. The UB 3-6 or 5-10 game (sometimes the 2-4 game) is noticeably tougher than the regular muckleshoot 20-40 game, imo. Definitely tougher than the 10-20 game.

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UB is tougher (some say much tougher) than the average online site, though.

[bernie]

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I don't know. The UB 3-6 or 5-10 game (sometimes the 2-4 game) is noticeably tougher than the regular muckleshoot 20-40 game, imo. Definitely tougher than the 10-20 game.

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UB is tougher (some say much tougher) than the average online site, though.

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You might be suprised at just how easy the 10-20 games are. Much less the 20-40.

b

[MicroBob]

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how can you not get rewarded for proper play?

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you need to strongly consider the likelihood that your game has leaks and that you could be playing better.

just assuming that you KNOW you are playing well...but it's the suck-outs and the beats and the crazy cards that are beating you is denying reality.


Of course it's possible that you are just in a lousy losing streak. It happens.
Losing for 10k or more hands is VERY common (both online AND live).


You don't seem to have as much of a concept of the 'long run' as you should.
Perhaps you THINK you understand the long-run...but there are many things you have said in your posts that indicate that you clearly don't.


If you can't beat the .25/.50 games online then I'm reluctant to believe that yo are just in a losing-streak.
Your game almost definitely has leaks.
And you seem extremely reluctant to acknowledge that you really aren't playing that well.



Look at the facts:
You are playing low-stakes against primarily bad-players.
You are losing.


Blaming the cards is just avoidance imo.
Take some responsibility. Try to improve your game.


Consider posting a hand or two in the micro-limit forum and I suspect you will quickly find out that you didn't know NEARLY as much about poker as you thought you did.


Sorry to be a bit harsh...but your post and the ideas contained are fairly common.
We've seen it several times.
Basically it boils down to saying "I can't even beat the low-limit losers online. I know that I'M not the problem. Therefore, since I know the problem isn't the way I play it MUST be.... (this, that or the other thing)."

[mike4bmp]

not harsh at all....welcomed criticism....I need this kind of stuff [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'll repeat what others have said: you're probably not a very good player.

At full ring tables full of loose opponents, with 5 or 6 players seeing the flop, it is incredibly easy to win. All you have to do is play tight preflop, fold when you don't have the pot odds to stay in, and bet and raise when you have a strong hand. That's it.

You can make all sorts of mistakes and still be a winning player, because your mistakes are cushioned by the fact that your opponents are pouring money onto the pot with very little chance of winning the hand.

Against tighter players, you have to actually outplay them after the flop to make money.

Go to the microlimits forum here and participate in the discussions about hands, use pokertracker if you're not using it already. Oh, and here's a tip: if the site you play at has 6max tables, try them instead of the full ring tables, that's where the loosest players can be found. I'm probably not a very good player either, but at .50/1.00 6max tables where half the players are seeing the flop, I can still easily win money.

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[mike4bmp]

So which online site are the softest?...cuz UB was where I was playing most of the time.

[mike4bmp]

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I'll repeat what others have said: you're probably not a very good player.

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I have to say the feedback that I have been receiving has been helpful in that it is a major reality check...cuz you guys are probably right...I have been mostly playing low limit live games and have probably picked up bad playing habits which is causing me to lose money online.
The straight forward criticisms in combination with the discussion of performance has helped humble me....
I shall study harder and develop me game....once again thanks to everyone who had something constructive to say...
Peace

[MicroBob]

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I have to say the feedback that I have been receiving has been helpful in that it is a major reality check...cuz you guys are probably right...

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I neglected to mention earlier; This attitude shows that you have DEFINITE potential as a poker-player.


Crappy poker-player = Completely denying the idea that THEY are the reason they are losing.
Good poker-player = Accepting criticism of one's ideas and game as you are doing.


I'm not kidding. You are to be commended.


These types of posts come up A LOT (mostly in the internet and general forums).
I would say that when it's this obvious that the problem is likely with the player and they receive input almost exactly like the posts that you got in this thread that a solid majority of the time the original poster gets super-defensive and starts saying things like "What are you talking about? How do YOU know I'm not a winning player? I'm telling you that I freaking know how to play. You guys are so conceited. etc etc etc."

you came into this thread with an open-mind...got the same type of feedback of "don't take this wrong way....please consider this possibility....you probably aren't that good..." etc etc and you actually LISTENED.


If you surfed around on these forums as much as steamboatin and I and others do you would fully understand how truly rare your attitude is and how truly common the ultra-defensive "my game is fine and you guys suck" resposes are.


Okay - onto some other stuff -

The micro games should be beatable at any site really.
That said, UB's are noted for being a bit tougher.
Even pokerstars limit games are probably better.
And most people around here like the partypoker games for their fishyness.


Somebody asked earlier if you were using pokertracker.
This is an important question actually.
You would be able to see what your VPIP and PFR and other stats are and see how they compare to long-term winning players in the micro and small-stakes forums.

Lots of players who THINK they are playing just fine but can't understand why they are losing come back and say..."well..you wanted my stats so here goes. My VPIP is 24 and my PFR is 4" and it becomes pretty obvious to everyone else that they really aren't very good at all and that there is a definite reason why they are not winning long-term.



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I have been mostly playing low limit live games and have probably picked up bad playing habits which is causing me to lose money online.

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'picking up' bad habits is one possibility.
But you should also consider the possibility that your game has never been that ideal to begin with.
If you haven't been clobbering the micro-limit games then this a very strong possibility.

Doing as well as you have done in the low-limit live games is probably kind of meaningless.
If you aren't a full-time player then it is unlikely that you have played enough hands to have a decent sample-size to really analyze your win-rate anyway (in other words...if you've played 200 hours or less of live poker then it's VERY possible that you play barely-better than a break-even game but have been running a bit better than average...these types of 'swings' are common).


anyway - surf around in the micro and small-stakes strategy forums and pick up some GOOD habits and continue to focus on improving your game.
good luck.