Shorthanded Play (2-4NL and higher)

[NiceCatch]

I play alot of 2-4NL shorthanded online, and I am a winning player at this level. As soon as I go to 5-10NL (the highest stakes NL at the site I play at), I'm dog meat... it seems like any sort of consistent preflop aggression, even with position and decent hands, gets me cleaned out. [BTW, by shorthanded, I mean 5max, average of about 4 players.]

What are the common differences in successful play between full-table and 5max at high-stakes? What are the common differences in successful play between 2-4NL 5max and 5-10NL (or any second-highest stakes game versus the highest-stakes game)?

Is the shorthanded high-stakes NL about slowplaying big hands? I don't seem to need to do that at 5max 2-4NL... but obviously the players are worse.

The quandary I seem to find myself in is, when I'm too selective with hands preflop, I don't get enough action on my big hands... obviously it will allow me to buy a few more pots in position. But overall, this is not a winning formula, since in 5max you just don't get enough playable hands to make money this way, especially when your big hands are getting no action. The other problem is, suppose you take the opposite approach and put in small (1/3rd pot-sized) bets with your decent hands... you're always giving odds to the drawers! You bet the pot with top pair... you'll only get called by someone who flopped two pair or a set or whatnot. On top of that, the moment you start laying down top-pair to raises on the turn, you're a sitting duck. Conversely, the moment you call someone's big bets down with just top-pair, you're a sitting duck! (They wait for a set, and pull the same move.)

Basically, any tips on playing these trickier high-stakes guys short-handed would be great. One thing that would probably be really helpful is the percentage of times certain hands win at showdown, given 4 or 5 players (is this available anywhere on the net???). Also, GENERALLY, what types of starting hands do you play at 5max high-stakes NL?

[nongice626]

[ QUOTE ]
I play alot of 2-4NL shorthanded online, and I am a winning player at this level. As soon as I go to 5-10NL (the highest stakes NL at the site I play at), I'm dog meat... it seems like any sort of consistent preflop aggression, even with position and decent hands, gets me cleaned out. [BTW, by shorthanded, I mean 5max, average of about 4 players.]

What are the common differences in successful play between full-table and 5max at high-stakes? What are the common differences in successful play between 2-4NL 5max and 5-10NL (or any second-highest stakes game versus the highest-stakes game)?

Is the shorthanded high-stakes NL about slowplaying big hands? I don't seem to need to do that at 5max 2-4NL... but obviously the players are worse.

The quandary I seem to find myself in is, when I'm too selective with hands preflop, I don't get enough action on my big hands... obviously it will allow me to buy a few more pots in position. But overall, this is not a winning formula, since in 5max you just don't get enough playable hands to make money this way, especially when your big hands are getting no action. The other problem is, suppose you take the opposite approach and put in small (1/3rd pot-sized) bets with your decent hands... you're always giving odds to the drawers! You bet the pot with top pair... you'll only get called by someone who flopped two pair or a set or whatnot. On top of that, the moment you start laying down top-pair to raises on the turn, you're a sitting duck. Conversely, the moment you call someone's big bets down with just top-pair, you're a sitting duck! (They wait for a set, and pull the same move.)

Basically, any tips on playing these trickier high-stakes guys short-handed would be great. One thing that would probably be really helpful is the percentage of times certain hands win at showdown, given 4 or 5 players (is this available anywhere on the net???). Also, GENERALLY, what types of starting hands do you play at 5max high-stakes NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

at a full table there are more nut peddlers. the play is much tighter because there are more players, and little room to get out of line (especially pre-flop).

i dont really consider 5 players as short handed, but then again i mostly paly HU or 3 way.

in a nutshell: there are more players, there is more protection. you must play tighter.

[Morphling29]

I wonder if you are talking about Pokerstars as your site. This is where I mostly play and I play both 2/4 nl and 5/10 nl so I know what you mean. The best advice for stars is game selection. You must pick the right 5/10 nl game to be profitable. I understand its like this every where but never have I seen it with more importance than here. There are times where we have that game with a 12% flop seen and $75 avg pot, which is terrible.
As far as shorthanded, you have to be loose and be ready to bluff in the 5/10. Sit with the max or people like me will scan the games, find people sitting without it and know we can run them over. Also, pay attention because thin value bets is the key to more winning sessions in this game. Remember what I said about game selection, easily most important.

[NiceCatch]

Thanks for the posts. So to recap:
-Pick looser tables.
-Value bet smaller so as not to get trapped (I'm assuming).
-Play tighter.
-Be ready to bluff.

How about slow-playing decent hands, like big PP before the flop? Or sets on the flop, with draws on the board? Recommendations... or is this completely opponent dependent?

Also, given three or four players, how likely is a pair going to win at showdown? Top-pair? Two-pair?

[ObnxNole]

I play both full 5/10 ring games and shorthanded tables on prima. However, i play much different at the shorthanded tables than the full ring games. Your agression must be much higher at the shorthanded tables. I usually raise in late position with any pocket pair AK AQ A10 suited... My play post flop depends on the players in the hand and of course the cards. The swings are much bigger shorthanded so be prepared. I also play top pair top kicker stronger shorthanded. I'm still looking to hit sets and strates but do not need quite as powerful of hand in the shorthanded play. Hope this helps. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Morphling29]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the posts. So to recap:
-Pick looser tables.
-Value bet smaller so as not to get trapped (I'm assuming).
-Play tighter.
-Be ready to bluff.

How about slow-playing decent hands, like big PP before the flop? Or sets on the flop, with draws on the board? Recommendations... or is this completely opponent dependent?

Also, given three or four players, how likely is a pair going to win at showdown? Top-pair? Two-pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not value bet smaller, make thinner value bets. Meaning hands you would check when last to act on river like one pair with good kicker, you need to value bet.
As far as how often top pair is good and two pair ect. Short handed the value of your hand goes up, not every made draw is out there like it normally is in full ring, you can play hands slower if you choose, but if you are playing your bluffs fast it will be easy to tell soon, what you are doing and you will get no action on good hands. Also your bluffs will start to get called. So basically I would play every hand you play fast, bet nothing , bet the nuts, noone will be able to get a read on you.

[creedofhubris]

I would suggest identifying one or two weak players to target. At a 5-person table, you only need one fish to feed everyone.

Another thing to look for is a table with a lot of limping. If you are the most aggressive person preflop, that is a good sign.

Finally, watch out for VERY aggressive players who are regulars. Don't bother sitting at a table with them.

[NiceCatch]

[ QUOTE ]
I would suggest identifying one or two weak players to target. At a 5-person table, you only need one fish to feed everyone.

Another thing to look for is a table with a lot of limping. If you are the most aggressive person preflop, that is a good sign.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tables with fish are of course ideal, but at least reasonably rare at the site I play at (Pokerroom.com). Interestingly, I've found that aggressive play will get people killed; players will start playing back, or will tighten up and wait for a hand. Consistently stealing blinds is really tough, because the regulars are good enough that they just won't allow it; they'll adjust their play.

I think maybe I just need to play more to get a better handle on the play at this level... the earlier advice to play bluffs and strong hands the same was good advice. It seems like deception is absolutely key at this level. It also seems like on-the-fly adjustment to play is very important as well, and changing gears. I've seen solid 2-4NL players get eaten alive at 5-10NL, because they're just too easy to read. It's amazing the difference in level of play from 2-4NL to 5-10NL; the top level has some incredibly cagey players.

Is large bankroll variance guaranteed at this level, with 5max? That's one thing I'd really like to avoid...

[Voltron87]

My simplest advice is to mix it up. There is no one right way, you can't always be ultra aggressive or you will get trapped and you can always play too tight or you get no action. Bet some hands you don't want to get called, then in 10 minutes play the exact same way when you have a strong holding. Switch back to playing tight for a while, then bluff a few times.

There is no one right SH mode, it is all about changing gears.

[neon]

I certainly agree that changing gears is of huge importance in SH play, but I think it's only part of the equation. Especially when playing very short, you need to take flops with all sorts of hands, particularly when in position, and often times for a raise (esp. when playing with aggressive opponents, which you almost always will be when 4- or 5-handed at the highest altitude a site offers). And the more flops you take, the better your hand-reading skills and ability to pick the right spots postflop have to be.

Also, it has already been mentioned but it really is, imho, a crucial trait of the successful players in these games: aggression. Again, mixing it up is important, but rarely in the sense of slow-playing a big hand; rather, as Voltron said, play your big hands fast, and then, play a marginal hand the same way, with the same sort of aggressiveness (and again, hand-reading . . .)

fwiw. (btw, i'm somewhat of a regular as of late in the sh 5-10 nl games on pokerroom . . . my handle is bedeviling . . . stop by and say hi sometime [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]