Half a semi bluff, half a made hand.

Hi,

first the action: Internet 5/10 NL, i have around 500 sitting on the BB and A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. 9 player table and i have absolutely no read at this time. 2 fold, call,raise to 30(520$),fold,call(800$),call(450$),SB folds,i call,first caller folds.
Pot 135$
Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] .
I check, original raiser checks, 50$ bet, raise to 150$ i go all in(raise to 470).
Thoughts ?

[Morphling29]

You are back to what you started with preflop: have to make your flush to win. Raiser has a set, only question is will first better call your all in also, giving you over 3 to 1 or not. If not a call, as bad as it seems, could let him come in and build better odds on your money.

[AZK]

Raiser has a set...are you high? He checked. This is a pretty standard play in my opinion...

[Morphling29]

wrong raiser, I mean the guy who who raised first bet. Not preflop raiser

[AZK]

Why do you put him on a set, there are a host of hands that he can have here, I think narrowing any opponents hand range this early is costing you money...

[aggie]

I agree with AZK...This is a standard all in reraise play...You should expect everybody to fold a high percentage of the time....When they don't you have a nice draw....Nice play sir!

[n1bd]

If the flop reraiser would make this play even 1/3 of the times he holds a flush draw and is willing to call your raise, then all in is probably a good play. One problem is the original flop bettor. If he has a set and the raiser has a flush draw, then things look worse (you still lose money even if the lower flush draw calls and makes it a 3-way pot). However, most of the time the 50 guy doesn't have a big hand, just a crappy ace or worse.

If the 150 guy never (or very rarely) holds a flush draw in this spot, then folding is best.

The thing that makes top pair + nut flush draw tough in general is it's very easy to put you on that hand. If you are up against tough opponents who can routinely lay down smaller flush draws even when getting deceptively attractive odds, you will find yourself consistently getting the worst of it when you put your stack in with these hands.

[Morphling29]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you put him on a set, there are a host of hands that he can have here, I think narrowing any opponents hand range this early is costing you money...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that getting your money on this hand is the idea, what I was suggesting is that I would assume that you are behind, whether it be a set or bigger A. My suggestion was simply to find out how to get the best odds on your money, if you believe that you need to make your flush, then I would like to draw the 3rd player along, not shut him out.
Also with his all in the pot is somewher like 820. I dont see many times where the player who made it 150 is folding for an additionaly 320 in this large of pot after showing this much strength.

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
You are back to what you started with preflop: have to make your flush to win. Raiser has a set, only question is will first better call your all in also, giving you over 3 to 1 or not. If not a call, as bad as it seems, could let him come in and build better odds on your money.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont agree that you should should just call for the reasons you suggest. If you call and that keeps the original raiser in, you now have apx 600$ in the pot, which is good. You also now have 9 cards to make your hand, and 3 that give you a tough decision, that is bad.

You can be sure that if the flush does not hit, you will be asked very politely to either put in the rest of your chips or fold. Now everything being equal, you dont care when your chips go in, if you know beforehand what the pot will be, and your odds of catching your flush. But what happens when your flush hits, and it is checked around to you? What about the times that the 150 raiser doesn't have AK or a set and folds to your push?

The only way calling makes sense is if you are sure that you will be paid off on your flush. If not, either push or fold. If your 9 is live, your not in too bad of shape even if you get one caller, and AQ AJ may fold.