Did I make the right play here?

[intheflatfield]

I was in a tournament last night, and the following hand came up..

blinds are at 50 / 100

Hero - t6500
villian - t15000

I've played with villain before, and he is def. supper agro, and had just busted his table prior to moving to my table. This is his 1st hand at the table.

I am on the button w/ q8o.

1 late limper.

action to me - I check, because I feel like villain is going to make a move here in his first hand.

Villain open raises for 2000 from the bb

short stack calls all-in for 1500 (desperation call is my read) folds around to me, I re-raise all-in

Villain quickly calls, turns over KK, which holds up (he ended up with a boat).

Was I crazy to make this move w/ the blinds still this low?

Absolutely you were wrong to come over the top here! If you were on a "resteal" here I think you've got the concept wrong. In order to resteal you need to have a good idea that the villain in the hand is actually on a steal and not holding a real hand. There's a difference between an open raise and a steal. Someone who is playing their first hand at your table may be on a steal attempt, but you really need more time observing the villain before you can really make that determination with any certainty.

The other problem with this move is the short stack that's all in. You do NOT want people to see that you made this move with Q8. With the short stack all in, if villain does fold you now have to flip your hand and show the whole table that you just made a donkey move. You're basically announcing to the table that you made a horrible play and they shouldn't fear you.

You were asking for a spanking here and I'm betting you got one.

[intheflatfield]

I did. I usually don't make this move, but have played with villain before and know he is very capable of making that same raise w/ 95o or some such.

Good point about having to show down in this situation. I I didn't want to be pushed around by his stack, and I tried to make a statement, turns out that statement was "Hey, I'm a donk"

In my defence, I had been playing tag and had a good table image at the time.

On a side note, just out of curiosity. Assume the villain didn't have KK and folded. Would you have won here or doubled up the short stack?

[intheflatfield]

Won, short stack called w/ 78 suited, missed..

She had been a calling station and had been pushed out of a number of hands by another agressive player at the table and I could tell she was frustrated.

Well then it seems you had a good read on her. Yeah I'd say that's desperation - calling off 1500 chips with blinds at 50/100! She had plenty of time to keep playing and just hit the panic button.

I just noticed your post has the chronological order of events messed up, it seems. You say you were on the button, you checked and the villain made a open raise? Did you mean that perhaps you limped here and the villain raised out of the big blind? I'm assuming that's it.

And wow, open raise of 20BB? I had a friend in that same spot recently and this is usually a donkey move with a big hand hoping for a call. He asked me "What raises 24BB?" just before calling and losing. This is usually a donkey with a made hand that's overbetting the pot totally oblivious to the fact that he could make more with that strong of a hand. Of course, getting calls out of 87 and Q8 work just as well.....

Observational analysis: anyone who raises >=6xBB (assuming no limpers) preflop is a donk with a HUGE hand. ESPECIALLY early in a tourney. This "seems to be true" (that's the highly scientific term, lol) roughly 80% of the time. I saw an similar situation of just plain stupidity last night for example. 3rd hand of a PS $3 tourney (850 players) EP raises to 3xBB I call with pocket tens. Flop comes 9-7-3 with two hearts, giving me two backdoor draws, plus the overpair. EP guy goes all-in for like 1400 or so. I think for a long time and then say, "meh it's only $3" and call. He flips J-10 over and I'm ecstatic. Then a jack on the turn and I'm out. Moral? FOLD TO DONKEY BETS, unless you have a super strong hand! And yes, I know I'm being results-oriented when I say that. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Gross

[ QUOTE ]
Observational analysis: anyone who raises >=6xBB (assuming no limpers) preflop is a donk with a HUGE hand. ESPECIALLY early in a tourney. This "seems to be true" (that's the highly scientific term, lol) roughly 80% of the time. I saw an similar situation of just plain stupidity last night for example. 3rd hand of a PS $3 tourney (850 players) EP raises to 3xBB I call with pocket tens. Flop comes 9-7-3 with two hearts, giving me two backdoor draws, plus the overpair. EP guy goes all-in for like 1400 or so. I think for a long time and then say, "meh it's only $3" and call. He flips J-10 over and I'm ecstatic. Then a jack on the turn and I'm out. Moral? FOLD TO DONKEY BETS, unless you have a super strong hand! And yes, I know I'm being results-oriented when I say that. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Gross

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep you're right, this is results oriented thinking. He was pushing on a semi bluff hoping to see his gutshot complete or a jack to hit him square in the face - and you actually snapped off his bluff and called with the better hand. He was drawing to 7 outs and you were so far ahead it's sick. He could have just as easily had A9 here and thought TPTK was good here so he was pushing out the draws with a big bet.

Your advice is bad. The moral of the story is call donkey bets and take their stacks.

How can you "check" pf on the button? - FOLD Q8o

[billyjex]

he raised so much PF he is pretty much committed to call you, getting over 2 to 1, even if he doesn't understand odds he will think he has too much invested. So it's bad to steal from a committed villian (even though he had a real hand here) with complete junk.