Tell me if I'm overthinking here

skunkworks · #1 04-10-2004, 07:03 AM

My read on the UTG+1 player is that he plays too many hands and is timid in general.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Loose-Passive Player) calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 (Loose-Passive Player) calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Loose-Passive Player bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Loose-Passive Player bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Loose-Passive Player bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB
Main Pot: 9.25 BB, between Loose-Passive Player and Hero. > Pot won by Loose-Passive Player (9.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
Loose-Passive Player shows 6d 6c (three of a kind, sixes).
Hero shows Jc Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Loose-Passive Player wins 9.25 BB. 

Any criticism on my turn and river play?

Kluddeludde · #2 04-10-2004, 07:39 AM

I would raise the turn here. He could very well be on a flush draw, and you have to make him pay to see the river. A loose passive player will also pay you off with a 7 or an overpair to the flop all the way. If he reraises you, I would call the turn, but fold to a bet on the river. You are beat.

If you raise him on the turn and he bets into you again on the river, I would again consider folding, although it is not automatic. You are probably beat, but you gain alot of information by calling him down and seeing whether he has the flush or whether he played his set in a very strange way.

Kludde

Joe826 · #3 04-10-2004, 08:05 AM

I would have raised the turn also. My question is, why are you in this hand after the flop? The fact that a passive player bets into you when he knows you raised preflop should tell you something about what he's holding (i.e. he atleast got a piece of the flop, probably a good chunk). When you call the turn bet you only have your overcards and a backdoor flush. With a relatively small pot, you like these odds? This is just my opinion, I might be wrong to fold this.

BTW - do you know/like thrice? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

sthief09 · #4 04-10-2004, 09:00 AM

I wouldn't raise the turn. I'd much rather have him bet into me on the river trying to represent an ace. this way you induce a bluff and don't have to call down if he 3-bets

if he 3-bets can you safely lay the hand down? I don't think so, so I just call down

skunkworks · #5 04-10-2004, 09:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised the turn also. My question is, why are you in this hand after the flop? The fact that a passive player bets into you when he knows you raised preflop should tell you something about what he's holding (i.e. he atleast got a piece of the flop, probably a good chunk). When you call the turn bet you only have your overcards and a backdoor flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the odds to draw to my overcards on the flop, assuming that my outs are clean. I also have a backdoor draw to the nut flush. Given the circumstances, I felt comfortable calling here, and I don't think it's an issue here. The call is correct.

I definitely thought about raising the turn here since I've seen players bet with flush draws on the turn, but I didn't have enough confidence in my pair of aces to raise. Passive players like this don't bet into preflop raisers on the turn when an ace hits. If he was holding a pair of sevens, that ace SHOULD scare the crap out of him, but it didn't. That meant one of two things: he's making a mistake, or his hand beats my hand. If he's making a mistake and I raise him, I win an extra big bet. Calling him down, I miss a big bet. If his hand beats my hand and I raise, I lose 2 big bets calling him down.

Given my read on the player and my position, I figured a call here would be best. I have no problem letting him bet my hand for me, and if he checks on the river I would value bet.

I called his bet on the river instead of raising since the third flush card got there.

One more question though, if a brick hit on the river, I was planning to raise. Thinking about it, it seems contrary to the reasons I outlined above, so would raising the river be stupid?

chesspain · #6 04-10-2004, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My question is, why are you in this hand after the flop? The fact that a passive player bets into you when he knows you raised preflop should tell you something about what he's holding (i.e. he atleast got a piece of the flop, probably a good chunk). When you call the turn bet you only have your overcards and a backdoor flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the odds to draw to my overcards on the flop, assuming that my outs are clean. I also have a backdoor draw to the nut flush. Given the circumstances, I felt comfortable calling here, and I don't think it's an issue here. The call is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you don't think it's an issue because you are having difficulty seeing beyond your own cards. When a loose-passive player bets out into a PF raiser, you need to try to figure out what this opponent could be holding. Indeed, is he someone who would bet out with only a draw, or is it likely that he caught a piece of the flop? In fact, if he would not bet his draws, and is also a "plays any ace" player (as are most loose-passives), then you could easily be looking at him holding something like A6 or A7, which means that your ace outs aren't clean.

In conclusion, I'm not saying that your flop call is either good or bad; I'm simply suggesting that you need to move beyond seeing only your own cards, so that you base your strategy, in part, on the reads you already have on your opponents.

jonnyv · #7 04-10-2004, 12:39 PM

I would raise on the turn and see how he reacts.

bernie · #8 04-10-2004, 01:09 PM

These types of players dont generally bet draws. So his flop bet means he has something. At least 2 pair. Many will wait for the turn with their sets, except you have position on him. If he was behind you he may very well wait to do that.

Passives can be easily slowed down though with a raise. They tend to fear the worst. So one play might be to raise the flop. If he 3 bets, lay it down. Passives usually wont 3 bet without a great hand. But he may check to you on the turn, to which then you can check behind. That is IF you think if you spike an A or J it will be good. Mind you, id be much more inclined to bet if the J hit but 'consider' checking if the A hits. Though if he has Ax for the 2 pair he'd likely bet into you again. But again, some will fear you just spiked top set and check anyways.

If you improve on the turn, you're going to the river and likely to showdown. Which is something to think about on the flop.

I wouldnt be raising the turn on a passive player who's active unless you're willing to lay it down to a 3 bet. Their 3 bet standards are generally pretty tight in this spot. Which is why i may test it on a cheaper round. Also, if he cant beat an A, he isnt likely to bet into you here. The A will freeze him if he cant beat it. Since when do passives semi bluff often enough to raise here? Like, almost never.

Your river play is fine. I doubt he has a flush as, again, passives wouldnt play a flush draw this way. But they also dont bet every street and thru an ace (usually a big scare card for passives) hitting the turn unless they can beat top pair.

I think in a live situation this can be a much easier laydown on the flop. But if i was going to raise it, that's where i'd do it.

b

bernie · #9 04-10-2004, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the turn here. He could very well be on a flush draw, and you have to make him pay to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

A loose passive player is not betting a flush draw. They generally dont bet draws of any kind preferring to only put their money in with a made hand and not on the come. Ever hear them comment on betting on the come? It's kinda humorous.

The only draws they tend to bet are openended str8flush draw or a draw to a FH.

b

bernie · #10 04-10-2004, 01:14 PM