Party 750k cripple-me hand

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the steal attempt (I would've just raised 2.5x the BB in that spot though)

The min-re-raise had me putting him on A/A or K/K or A/K in that spot as well. A "please call me!" bet. I didn't expect him to have the A/Q, which would normally induce a push if he's going to play out of position.

He played it rather donkish. I can't see you getting away from the flop once you hit your gin card, and you wound up ahead of him. But I might fold to his re-raise and wait for a better spot as well, since he's representing a hand that has me beat, and I have enough chips to be averaged stack, and position to wait for a better opportunity.

When blinds are lower, I rarely fold to the min-raise. But this was a re-raise of your initial raise, and I don't think I like committing 6x the BB on a 10/8 hand, although pot odds aren't so bad and your opponent made a failed bluff on the flop.

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He is not REPRESENTING a monster hand with a minimum raise, just because that's what you put him on. If someone raises before the flop and then checks the flop, I may be highly suspicious that they have a big hand, but that doesn't mean he represented a big hand by checking.

Everyone is so determined to never, ever fall for that ol' minimum raise trick, that they are throwing away a very clear call. There is no reason you can't reevaluate on the flop, but folding your hand for 3k more is just absurd.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the way the hand played out, I call the reraise and then puke/fold the flop.

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gross. what'd you call the min raise for?

[schwza]

my problem with calling is that even if you flop one pair, you're now in a ~neutralEV spot since villain has an overpair so often. if you miss, you lose the pot (at least, i'm not doing anything without at least a pair or good draw).

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
He is not REPRESENTING a monster hand with a minimum raise, just because that's what you put him on. If someone raises before the flop and then checks the flop, I may be highly suspicious that they have a big hand, but that doesn't mean he represented a big hand by checking.

Everyone is so determined to never, ever fall for that ol' minimum raise trick, that they are throwing away a very clear call. There is no reason you can't reevaluate on the flop, but folding your hand for 3k more is just absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that the pot-odds are nice, you can get away from this hand with 17K remaining in your stack and wait for a better spot. By calling, you're creating a pot so large that there is pretty much zero doubt that you both are not going to lay down for such a large pot.

Blinds are 750/1500
SB posts 750
BB posts 1500
We raise to 4500
Pot is now: 6,750
SB re-raises to 7,500
Pot is now: 9,750

We must call another 3K, so we're getting over 3 to 1 odds to call, with position. We just call:

Pot 12,750

We now have 13,500 remaining. The pot is so large compared with both our stack and that of the villians that it's going to be difficult for either of us to get away from this hand. When villian bets 5K into the pot, there's no way he's folding to a push, the pot is just offering him too much money to call in this spot.

Whenever someone gives me great odds like that, and I'm not a large stack that can take a huge hit without it short-stacking me, then I need to figure out why he's offering me such great odds.

Yes, not all players are tricky, understand pot odds, etc. Some of them are total donks and make donkish plays. But my buddy Mr Moo fell into a trap in a big Party Poker tournament.

He had position and raised about 1/3 of his stack (was getting shorter-stacked) with A/Q. A larger stack in the blind min-re-raised him. The blind was giving him great odds to call, and there was no way if he did call that all the money wasn't going to get into the middle. His opponent held K/K and just made it too desirable for him to get all his money in as an underdog.

If the stacks were deeper in the above scenerio, I might opt to call and take my chances. But when I don't have much wiggle room, I will likely give up the steal attempt with such a marginal holding and wait for a better opportunity.

[fnurt]

If Mr Moo had flopped an ace because the KK gave him the odds to draw to it, then we'd all see the virtue of calling when the pot offers the odds. Since he didn't, yeah, I guess he was the victim of a brilliant trap.

If you're not even willing to call a minimum reraise with a hand, no matter what the pot odds are, that's a good argument for not even bothering to raise in the first place. Of course, now that we're hearing that it's a good idea to lay down AQ to a minimum reraise, it strikes me that there's not going to be very many hands we can raise with any more.

Lest we forget, what actually happened in the hand under discussion is that some donk reraised the minimum with AQ from the blinds, ended up behind when all the chips went in due to improperly giving his opponent odds to draw, but then got lucky and sucked out on the turn. And now everyone wants to reward that donk by folding to his raise in the first place, notwithstanding that it was an awful play. Let me just point out that this is not the only donk in the world, and you will see many min-raises in your career that are not anything close to AA.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
If Mr Moo had flopped an ace because the KK gave him the odds to draw to it, then we'd all see the virtue of calling when the pot offers the odds. Since he didn't, yeah, I guess he was the victim of a brilliant trap.

If you're not even willing to call a minimum reraise with a hand, no matter what the pot odds are, that's a good argument for not even bothering to raise in the first place. Of course, now that we're hearing that it's a good idea to lay down AQ to a minimum reraise, it strikes me that there's not going to be very many hands we can raise with any more.

Lest we forget, what actually happened in the hand under discussion is that some donk reraised the minimum with AQ from the blinds, ended up behind when all the chips went in due to improperly giving his opponent odds to draw, but then got lucky and sucked out on the turn. And now everyone wants to reward that donk by folding to his raise in the first place, notwithstanding that it was an awful play. Let me just point out that this is not the only donk in the world, and you will see many min-raises in your career that are not anything close to AA.

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I completely understand what you're saying. I have no problem calling a min-raise pre-flop. If some donk tries to min-raise my blind, I'm calling with pretty much any hand everytime.

What happened here was a bit different. This wasn't a min-raise. You raised and there was a re-raise. It was a min-re-raise. Granted, that's a dumb move on Villians part, because it does give you odds to call. The problem is that you don't have a deep enough stack to really get away from this hand.

Yes, you wound up ahead, AFTER the flop. But the majority of the time you are way behind in these situations, and usually you're up against a strong overpair. You hit your 10 with a weak kicker and you're in trouble.

In Mr Moo's case, I believe he had about 150K chips left, and from position with A/Q raised to about 50K, leaving himself 100K behind. When his opponent min-raises, there's no way if Mr. Moo calls that he's getting away after the flop, he's got 2/3 of his money in there and the pot odds are huge.

And there's no way that the large stack that min-re-raised him is folding to a push, because it's only another 50K more.

Sometimes there's more to consider than pot odds in these situations, that's all I'm saying.

Early in a 929-player tournament (of which I placed 3rd) I found A/Q suited UTG and raised from 15 to 75. A player I had already taken notes on, as a total donk, pushed in for 1K. Another player wound up calling as well. I figured I'd take a shot and gambool it up, and the pusher had 7/3 offsuit and the other player had pocket 4's??? He hit a set of 4's but I flushed out on the river.

I can make some risky calls when I feel the time is right, but I think the Hero in the above case would have been better served (in 90% of the cases) to get away from the hand and wait for a better spot.

[arkady]

For those saying; fold to a min-raise....Would it be reasonable to say that unless you are willing to call a min-raise you should not be raising?

But given the situation is it worth raising to 4500 given the stack size only to fold a min-raise? Or do the steals work often enough in these situations that in the long run (if there is such a thing) it makes the steal a worthwhile gamble?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying; fold to a min-raise....Would it be reasonable to say that unless you are willing to call a min-raise you should not be raising?

But given the situation is it worth raising to 4500 given the stack size only to fold a min-raise? Or do the steals work often enough in these situations that in the long run (if there is such a thing) it makes the steal a worthwhile gamble?

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I think a 2.5x the BB raise is more appropriate, when blinds get this high relative to the stacks, usually this is enough to take the blinds.

When you get played back against in this spot, you are usually behind. Given villians play, I'm going to put him on a hand like Q/Q, K/K or A/A that is looking for action (that wasn't the case THIS time, but I think most of the time such a play will mean that type of hand)

So with a hand like 10/8 suited you're going to need a miracle flop in this spot to win the hand. If your opponent is on an overpair, then you are a 20% to 80% dog in the hand, and only getting 3-1 on your call. So you really aren't getting the right odds in this spot, if Villian is on that hand.

In this particular case, you were actually 40% to 60% in the hand, so you are getting a great price on your call. But in most cases, again, I put them on a strong pocket pair, so even if I hit one of my cards, I'm still behind and in trouble.

[fnurt]

Let's try and do this the scientific way. What % of the time do you put them on a big pair, what % of the time do you put them on big unpaired cards, what % of the time do you put them on random junk making a move?

Among total donks (i.e. in your Wednesday night game) a minimum raise often means nothing more than "I think you're bluffing, but I'm not going to risk all my chips to find out," so I do think you have to assign some number to the 3rd category.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be reasonable to say that unless you are willing to call a min-raise you should not be raising?


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no. why would it? you get min-reraised pretty frickin' infrequently.