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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:36 PM
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Default QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

Very soft table. UTG+1 is an unknown, but a tight player so far. This is the first hand they played after 1 orbit. Button is a wonderful little fish, calls down with anything, hardly ever raises preflop, and never raises after the flop. Stats on him are 57/1.4/.4, with flop AF .21 and turn AF .3.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, fish calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, fish calls, UTG+1 calls.

UTG+1 is not a big concern yet, but the fish is... I'm thinking A-rag here, but he could be on a 7 and just calling down like all good fish do.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">fish bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

I check here to see what the fish does. With a turn AF of .3, I don't see him leading out with anything less than an A or the trip-7's. He bets, I just don't see what he could have that I beat, so I lay it down.

So all this got me thinking. When playing against a fish like this, is it better to just check/fold the flop when an A comes against your big pair? Or would that qualify for a skirt? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I mean, with an AF of .3, a guy like this is only gonna bet if he has a big hand right? And he did cold-call a 3-bet. What fish cold-calls a 3-bet unless he has an A or a K? I'm trying to figure out if I played this flop correctly or not...
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:39 PM
Buckmulligan Buckmulligan is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

bet the turn as your last piece of money.
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  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:44 PM
DeadManJay DeadManJay is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

I play this hand the same way.
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  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:44 PM
Aaron W. Aaron W. is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Button is a wonderful little fish, calls down with anything, hardly ever raises preflop, and never raises after the flop.

...

I check here to see what the fish does. With a turn AF of .3, I don't see him leading out with anything less than an A or the trip-7's. He bets, I just don't see what he could have that I beat, so I lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... let fishy take a free card when he's behind? If he's calling down with anything, then he can have many hands that you beat. Bet the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
So all this got me thinking. When playing against a fish like this, is it better to just check/fold the flop when an A comes against your big pair? Or would that qualify for a skirt? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I mean, with an AF of .3, a guy like this is only gonna bet if he has a big hand right? And he did cold-call a 3-bet. What fish cold-calls a 3-bet unless he has an A or a K? I'm trying to figure out if I played this flop correctly or not...

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish may coldcall a pocket pair. You're ahead of almost all of those. The flop bet is fine.
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  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:02 PM
DeadManJay DeadManJay is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

When you bet the turn and get called, do you fire again on the river?
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:18 PM
Buckmulligan Buckmulligan is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

no
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:20 PM
MrWookie47 MrWookie47 is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn as your last piece of money.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:21 PM
DeadManJay DeadManJay is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

Thats exactly what I would think, and thats why I have trouble betting this turn. This guy is a fish, as OP said, so we expect him to call turn even if he has nothing. If I think I'm behind on this turn, which I do, I can't bet it.
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 10:29 PM
Buckmulligan Buckmulligan is offline
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

do you know that being a fish means that he has a larger calling range? Do you know that a larger calling range entitles you to bet more liberally? From what you have said, villain will call the turn with weaker hands and draws. We don't bet the river because he folds a lot of those draws.
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: QQ and a fish: c/f this flop?

[ QUOTE ]
From what you have said, villain will call the turn with weaker hands and draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the problem I had: he didn't call the turn, he bet it. I based my laydown almost completely on his aggression factor stats. I've started to use AF more (broke down by street on the HUD per Easypete's suggestion in this forum) to get a feel for betting patterns... With a VP$IP that high, and an AF of .3, man, a guy like that only bets when he has something he's not afraid of betting. From what I've seen, most fish with those kind of stats will check when it's checked to them if they are drawing to something. Many will check with just a lower pair. A flop like this and he feels like he can bet into 2 guys that both raised preflop? Will a fish with his stats really bet in this situation with anything less than top pair or a set?
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