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  #1  
Old 11-23-2005, 09:39 PM
neuroman neuroman is offline
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Posts: 47
Default Going too far with Tens?

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (10.50 SB)

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (8.25 BB)

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (20.25 BB)

Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

River - (25.25 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (29.25 BB)

How long should I keep betting a pair of tens into a crowd of calling stations?

Should I check 4th street, since anyone with two eyeballs can see the ace didn't improve me? (All 4 aces are out face up.) OTOH, looks like no one else improved either.

5th st: Should I check/call? Once I got raised, I figured I was probably behind jacks up, but thought I should call for one bet. Is this correct? Outs: the case Ten, probably 2 queens, partial outs for a jack or a 4th club.
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2005, 11:13 PM
MrBlueNose MrBlueNose is offline
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Posts: 147
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

With a ten dead, 1.5 straight outs dead, two live overs ehind me, and no suitedness I'd usually fold that on third. On 4th after hitting that blank, as well as the failed attempt at thinning the field, I'm giving it up right there.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2005, 01:13 AM
MikeBandy MikeBandy is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

I appreciate MrBlueNose’s astute comments about third and fourth streets. By folding earlier, we wouldn’t find ourselves in this fifth-street situation. None-the-less, here we are.

[ QUOTE ]
5th st: Should I check/call? Once I got raised, I figured I was probably behind jacks up, but thought I should call for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don’t know the answer to your question, and I look forward to what the experts (in addition to MrBlueNose) will say. I’d play fifth street as you did.

I think the alternative would be to give it up with a check-fold. The problem is that you still don’t know where you stand if you check and are bet into. Was the bet a result of your showing weakness, or did the jack help the bettor?

By betting, you’ve defined your hand. You know that you’re probably against jacks up, and you have by far the worst of it. However, you can see sixth street for one big bet. I’d call, and then lay it down on sixth street, as you did.
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2005, 01:22 AM
Spladle Master Spladle Master is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 374
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

[ QUOTE ]
With a ten dead, 1.5 straight outs dead, two live overs ehind me, and no suitedness I'd usually fold that on third. On 4th after hitting that blank, as well as the failed attempt at thinning the field, I'm giving it up right there.

[/ QUOTE ]
7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25

No.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2005, 02:30 AM
SNOWBALL138 SNOWBALL138 is offline
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Location: LA
Posts: 518
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

I think you should have just flat called on third street. By making the pot big early, you are forcing yourself to chase when your opponents make good draws. Also, you are forcing your opponents to play more correctly with their mediocre hands by calling down on later streets.

I think you'll find that your split pair of tens with your nine kicker doesn't have good equity multi-way. You're giving up a lot of edge by raising third street here. I think you definitely have a hand that is a wait-and-see hand. Your opponents are going to play the later streets so poorly, so why not magnify their errors by taking a slower approach?

If no one seems to catch good on fourth, you might be able to raise a bet that comes from your right. Or you might be able to fold vs. a bunch of live draws or an open pair or someone that is getting aggressive when they catch a Q. By raising third, you put yourself in a situation where you are forced to "play badly" and chase.

Cheers,
Snowball
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2005, 03:41 AM
neuroman neuroman is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 47
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

Thanks for the replies. I guess the basic problem was building a pot with a marginal holding and not much in the way of draws.

Opponent who bet the J on 5th st in fact only had a single pair (to which I was still behind, of course.)

The pot went to seat 6 who made spectacular value calls with his wired trip 8s on every street.

Results:
Main Pot: $28.25 | Rake: $1

Seat 3: [ Jd 7c Qh 2c Jh 2s 5d ] [ two pairs, jacks and twos -- Qh,Jd,Jh,2c,2s ]

Seat 4: [ 7h 7s As 8c 6s 7d 5s ] [ three of a kind, sevens -- As,8c,7h,7s,7d ]

Seat 6: [ 8s 8h 8d 3d 9h Qd Ks ] [ three of a kind, eights -- Ks,Qd,8s,8h,8d ]

Seat 7: [ Kd 6c Ts Ah 6d Th 3s ] [ two pairs, tens and sixes -- Ah,Ts,Th,6c,6d ]
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  #7  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:33 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 1,245
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

Third is a limp. The pot is too big to fold. Your hand isn't so strong that you want to build a big pot, and raising unlikely to thin the field to a desirable level. I think calling is the only viable option.

Your hand is pretty dead on fourth street and you're facing 37 opponents. I would check and hope for a miracle. Same on fifth. You did well to get out on sixth, though.
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  #8  
Old 11-24-2005, 04:48 AM
bygmesterf bygmesterf is offline
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Posts: 29
Default Re: Going too far with Tens?

[ QUOTE ]

I think the alternative would be to give it up with a check-fold. The problem is that you still don’t know where you stand if you check and are bet into. Was the bet a result of your showing weakness, or did the jack help the bettor?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't really matter, your hand sucks, it's time to fold and move one. The moment you feel like you are making a crying call, if it's before the river is the time to fold your hand.

It's very easy to get sucked into a 7/stud pot and it's rarely worth it. Let's say that folding is a mistake in this situation (and we have have good reason to think that it's not a mistake). How big of a mistake is it? I would guess at most 0.2BB, and probably less.
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