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  #11  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:29 PM
rigoletto rigoletto is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance he lays down JJ or QQ if you fire again on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time a good player will make up his mind when 3-bet, so when he calls it is often with the intention of calling down.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:41 PM
NMcNasty NMcNasty is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

I would lean towards calling down. A good aggressive opponent could easily 3 bet K9s-89s preflop (or possibly even the offsuit variations) and checkraise the flop with those hands, not because its the standard play, but because its how good unpredictable players mix it up. Small pairs could also be checkraising since the checkraiser knows he'll get KQ,QT,JT,QJ etc. to fold instantly. Fold before showdown if you see a nine or two more overcards. Raising somewhere along the way will just force you to fold to a 3bet and miss a longshot at your two outs, and raising will never get a better hand to fold.
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:43 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any chance he lays down JJ or QQ if you fire again on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time a good player will make up his mind when 3-bet, so when he calls it is often with the intention of calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not saying I'm a good player, but I would never fold QQ on the flop for 1 more bet. Part of me would hoping to hit my 2 outer and the main reason I would call would be to see if the turn would get checked through. If my opponent bets the turn I may call or I may let it go depending on my read.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:48 PM
pete fabrizio pete fabrizio is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

[ QUOTE ]
Against thinking tough players I prefer 3-betting; they'll lay down a bluff or underpair to a 3-bet most of the time, so if 4-bet you can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a 4th bet heads-up in position in this spot is a disaster, as is thinking that a tough player will lay down a pair "most of the time" to one more bet.
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2005, 04:49 PM
Nate tha' Great Nate tha' Great is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against thinking tough players I prefer 3-betting, if called you check the turn and sometimes call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Any chance he lays down JJ or QQ if you fire again on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ/QQ/KK are among the less likely hands to check-raise this flop IMO.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2005, 05:09 PM
rigoletto rigoletto is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against thinking tough players I prefer 3-betting; they'll lay down a bluff or underpair to a 3-bet most of the time, so if 4-bet you can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a 4th bet heads-up in position in this spot is a disaster, as is thinking that a tough player will lay down a pair "most of the time" to one more bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you argue your point very eloquently... no, wait a minute, I think you are full of...
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2005, 06:05 PM
Nate tha' Great Nate tha' Great is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

Paluka,

This is certainly one of those spots that's easier to play on the virtual felt than on paper. My first instinct was that you should be inclined to call down. I can tell you that I definitely don't like any of the 3-betting type variations.

But after thinking it over some I think it's probably a fold. And the reason that it's a fold is because of your preflop cap. Unless your opponent has seen you capping light, he knows that a reasonable ace or some fairly big pocket pair are your likely holdings, and you're never going to fold an ace and he probably won't expect you to fold a big pocket pair either, especially as the pot has already become quite large. So I don't think your opponent can expect to show a profit from making some kind of a play here, again unless there are some metagame things that you haven't told us about.

On the other hand, suppose the opponent does have a big hand like AK, AQ, A9, 99 (AA might fall into a slightly different category since then it becomes less likely that you've hit the board and the opponent might want to play it a little slower and induce some bluffs). Is this a good way for him to play his hand? I think it is. Check-raising the turn is a little bit transparent and risks you either folding to the check-raise or checking behind and getting off cheaply. Something like check-calling and betting out on the river keeps you involved but doesn't extract enough value those times that you do have a second best hand that you're willing to call down or play back with. If I'm your opponent, I'm almost always going to have a pretty big hand here. In fact, this is not a spot where I'm going to make very many plays at you at all, but I expect that my table image will be tricky/aggressive enough from other spots where I *do* make plays that I expect to get called down or played back at pretty often.

Again, this is all because of that preflop cap. If you'd raised and just been called by one of the blinds and he check-raised this flop, I think the calldown would be almost automatic, even though the pot would be smaller.
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2005, 09:54 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

If you have 88 in the SB, how do you proceed? Check-Call down? Check fold somewhere? If SB has 88, I believe if he's commited to showing down checkraising the flop is his best play. For an extra SB he gives Paluka the chance to fold a hand like TT as you say you would in this decent sized pot. He still reserves the right to fold to a turn raise or check fold the river. IMO, the most profitable way to play AK for SB would be to bet out at the Ace high flop. A weak Ace, KK or QQ should just call down. This checkraise smells like a medium pair to me most of the time, maybe a flopped set.
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  #19  
Old 05-26-2005, 10:08 PM
roy_miami roy_miami is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

Out of curiousity, what are your capping standards in a tough game in this position? I would suspect they are pretty low. KTo? TJs? Lower?
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2005, 04:53 AM
fearme fearme is offline
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Default Re: typical situation where I\'m still an idiot

i think an agg would craise that flop rather than the turn, i would
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