Overcall with the 2nd Nuts?

naphand · #1 12-12-2005, 05:47 AM

An interesting choice to make here on the Turn.

TABLE CONDITIONS: Playing quite loose with overall (table) V$IP around 30%. BB is average/weak V$IP25/05. Button and CO are quite new, I have less than 1 orbit of hands on them.

$5/$10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Naphand is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $7.
2 folds, Naphand calls, 3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, Naphand calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Naphand calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (7.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets $10 (All-In), Naphand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

PFR is all-in and probably crushed so should I just call here to build a side-pot against a weak [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or other draws? Calling might encourage a Q to raise and any ISD to overcall drawing dead.

Frogic · #2 12-12-2005, 05:53 AM

Overcalls look good to me, only that gets called by a raise here is the Ah(which is discounted since we should hear from this on the flop) and a really stubborn queen. My only reservation is that another heart on the river will kill any action.

Frogic

Net Warrior · #3 12-12-2005, 08:28 AM

With the CO late posting $7, I think you should open raise pre-flop. I can't imagime what the CO & BU might have with their flop calls, but I'd raise on the turn to charge them if they want to try to draw out against me.

crunchy1 · #4 12-12-2005, 10:02 AM

Raise PF. Raise the flop. Doing both these things would dramatically change the way the hand played out.

Raise the turn. It may look like you're trying to isolate the all-in guy and that in itself may induce some 2BB calls.

IMO - you're PF/Flop play are the streets that cost you money on this hand.

thejameser · #5 12-12-2005, 10:25 AM

i would raise pf, but oh well. i would overcall the turn and lead the river.

#6 12-12-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. Raise the flop. Doing both these things would dramatically change the way the hand played out.

Raise the turn. It may look like you're trying to isolate the all-in guy and that in itself may induce some 2BB calls.

IMO - you're PF/Flop play are the streets that cost you money on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

naphand · #7 12-12-2005, 05:57 PM

It would be nice if people would bother to explain WHY these actions are better.

I am not the slightest bit interested in being _instructed_ what I want is DISCUSSION; this means giving reasons and explaining why a particular line is more EV than another.

I disagree about automatically raising hands like KQs PF. The fact there is a blind posted can be used as an argument to raise on the basis that you want them to pay or get the dead money, it could also be used as a reason to limp and encourage overlimps with a hand that does extremely well MW and can win a big pot.

Offsuit hands it is far more necessary to raise. Not so here IMO and I know I am not alone in this opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO - you're PF/Flop play are the streets that cost you money on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If you want to make absolute statements like this, you need an argument.

naphand · #8 12-12-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn. It may look like you're trying to isolate the all-in guy and that in itself may induce some 2BB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

The All-in guy is also the PF 3-bettor - and from the BB to boot. I think raising him is really quite unlikely to induce any calls; the callers have to be able to beat 2 hands, at least one of which is very strong (BB) and the board is very scary. Against some calling stations and fish yep, but these players are unknowns.

Is it not better to let them call 1 bet drawing almost dead, than correctly fold?

carniplant · #9 12-12-2005, 06:24 PM

I think you should raise the flop, you flopped a K high flush so you are going to want to raise for value somewhere, Having BB as the aggressor sucks because raising forces the field to call 2 cold, so you can't use a line like bet/3bet or c/r to trap for value.

Since i still want to raise for value i think the flop is the best place to do it, I think they are more likely to incorectly call 2 cold on flop with hands like say Jh/9 or something then on the turn.

Having played it the way you did i just overcall the turn and lead the river will get the most $ from weak hands I think.

crunchy1 · #10 12-12-2005, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TABLE CONDITIONS: Playing quite loose with overall (table) V$IP around
30%.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise PF. You're hand is probably best against players like this. If it's not and you get a bunch of callers great - you also happen to hold a hand that plays well in a multiway pot. Secondly, if you happen to flop big - as was the case in this hand - you're extra strong holding is disguised in that normal loose, bad players will not be able to place you on this hand.

The blind is posted 6 seats away from you. IMO - it's not a reason to be raising, calling or folding. There's much that can happen in between you and that blind that is of more importance than the simple fact that there is a blind posted.

[ QUOTE ]
BB is average/weak V$IP25/05. Button and CO are quite new, I have less than 1 orbit of hands on them.

[/ QUOTE ]
The other players (save the all-in BB) are unkown to you. In general you should be assuming that these players are more likely to call bets on the flop than on the bug streets - this can/should be a pretty general assumption of most unknown players. Therefore, my comments about your preflop and flop play costing you money on this hand are as follows:

(A) Had you made a very correct raise PF you would've started building a pot. You would've tied people to the pot in the event that you made a big hand.

(B) Not raising the flop did not give you a chance to get your unknown players further tied to the pot in the event that they had a lone [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or pair hand that is essentially drawing dead.

(C) You're operating under the assumption that these guys are going to overcall you on the turn - which you (a) shouldn't be making given they're unknown and (b) is a dangerous game to play when there's a good possibility (given this very draw heavy board) that there are strong second-best hands out or (what Villians think are) strong draws against your second nuts.